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Subject: Re: Are there programs which can win this without tablebases?

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 21:28:43 10/22/05

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On October 23, 2005 at 00:23:06, Uri Blass wrote:

>On October 22, 2005 at 11:05:21, Günther Simon wrote:
>
>>On October 22, 2005 at 09:34:42, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On October 22, 2005 at 08:08:47, Günther Simon wrote:
>>>
>>>>This position really happened in one of my RWBC games today
>>>>and it revealed a bug in a program. 6 men say it is a win.
>>>>(Shredder Oracle : M27 with best play)
>>>>I am not sure though, if there are programs, which are able
>>>>to win this without tablebases at all? (in reasonable time ;)
>>>>
>>>>Guenther
>>>>
>>>>[D]4r3/8/8/8/8/6bk/7p/3R3K b - - 0 76
>>>
>>>I doubt if there are programs that can find it without tablebases at reasonable
>>>time because I expect KRB vs KR to be prune based on no threat but
>>>Yace with 5 piece tablebases agree with shredder  Oracle
>>>
>>>New game, 4320'/1
>>>4r3/8/8/8/8/6bk/7p/3R3K b - - 0 1
>>>
>>>Analysis by Yace 0.99.87:
>>>
>>...
>>
>>>1...Bf4 2.Rf1 Kg4 3.Rb1 Rc8 4.Rf1 Be3 5.Kxh2 Rd8 6.Kg2 Rd2+ 7.Kh1 Bf2 8.Kg2 Bg3+
>>>9.Kg1 Re2 10.Rd1 Bf4 11.Rd3 Be3+ 12.Kf1 Kf3 13.Rd7 Rh2 14.Rf7+ Bf4 15.Rg7 Rc2
>>>16.Re7 Rb2 17.Re8
>>>  -+  (-#27)   Depth: 22/51   00:29:39  2527052kN
>>>
>>>(,  22.10.2005)
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>Thanks for the cpu time Uri. I have one question though, did you
>>analyse this with 5 men + Yaces' bitbases or without bitbases?
>>(Those would probably speed it up a 'bit')
>>
>>Guenther
>
>I believe that I have no bitbases but as dieter said they are not very
>important.
>
>Uri

I can add that I believe no program can win it with no tablebases.

finding winning score that is not score for normal KRB vs KR in the following
position with no tablebases is already a very hard problem for program without
tablebases

[D]2r5/8/8/8/6k1/4b3/7K/5R2 b - - 0 5



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