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Subject: Re: where are the difficult test positions ? please no positions that we

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 11:59:34 11/07/05

On November 07, 2005 at 14:12:54, Martin Baumung wrote:

>On November 07, 2005 at 13:32:11, Kurt Utzinger wrote:
>
>>      Is this really a good test position.
>>      CM9_T05 does not find 28.Rxh5 within
>>      reasonable time and does even not
>>      assess the postion after 28.Rxh5 gxh5
>>      as won for White. Is the game continuation
>>      indeed forced. Further investigations
>>      are required I think. Analysis under
>>      CM-GUI on P4 1.8/32 MB hash
>>      Kurt
>
>[D]6k1/4pp1p/3p4/7p/p3P3/r4P2/P1PK2P1/1R6 w - -
>
>Here's Shredder's evaluation of the position after 28.Rxh5 gxh5:
>
>FEN: 6k1/4pp1p/3p4/7p/p3P3/r4P2/P1PK2P1/1R6 w - - 0 29
>
>Shredder 9.1:
>  1/3-	00:00	           3	0	-0,34	29.Tb1b7
>  1/3	00:00	           6	0	-0,34	29.Tb1b7
>  1/3+	00:00	          17	0	-0,08	29.Tb1b8+
>  1/3	00:00	          19	0	-0,08	29.Tb1b8+ Kg8g7
>  1/3+	00:00	          27	0	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3 Kg7f6
>32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
>  1/15	00:00	          28	0	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3 Kg7f6
>32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
>  2/2	00:00	          39	0	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3 Kg7f6
>32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
>  3/3	00:00	          70	0	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3 Kg7f6
>32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
>  4/4	00:00	         128	0	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3 Kg7f6
>32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
>  5/5	00:00	         185	0	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3 Kg7f6
>32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
>  6/6	00:00	         300	0	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3 Kg7f6
>32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
>  7/7	00:00	         545	0	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3 Kg7f6
>32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
>  8/8	00:00	         799	0	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3 Kg7f6
>32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
>  9/9	00:00	       1.145	0	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3 Kg7f6
>32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
> 10/10	00:00	       1.221	0	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3 Kg7f6
>32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
> 11/11	00:00	       1.735	0	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3 Kg7f6
>32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
> 12/12	00:00	       2.518	157.375	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3
>Kg7f6 32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
> 13/13	00:00	       4.140	258.750	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3
>Kg7f6 32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
> 14/14	00:00	       6.604	206.375	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3
>Kg7f6 32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
> 15/15	00:00	      21.989	349.031	+0,10	29.Tb1b2 f7f5 30.e4xf5 Kg8g7 31.c2c3
>Kg7f6 32.Kd2d3 d6d5 33.g2g4 h5xg4 34.f3xg4 e7e5 35.f5xe6/ep Kf6xe6 36.Tb2b7
> 16/27	00:01	     606.891	606.891	+0,26	29.Tb1b2 e7e6 30.c2c3 Kg8g7
> 16/27+	00:01	     839.828	624.872	+0,27	29.Tb1a1
> 16/27+	00:01	     890.978	626.566	+0,62	29.Tb1a1
> 16/27	00:02	   1.399.415	639.586	+0,65	29.Tb1a1 e7e6 30.c2c3 d6d5 31.e4xd5
>e6xd5 32.Kd2c2
> 17/25	00:02	   1.569.086	643.595	+0,55	29.Tb1a1 e7e6 30.c2c3 d6d5 31.Kd2c2 d5d4
>32.c3xd4 Kg8f8 33.Kc2d2 h5h4 34.d4d5 h4h3 35.g2xh3 Ta3xf3
> 18/24	00:03	   2.180.174	634.140	+0,41	29.Tb1a1 e7e6 30.c2c3 d6d5 31.e4xd5
>e6xd5 32.Kd2c2
> 18/26+	00:04	   2.637.070	636.819	+0,42	29.Tb1b2
> 18/26+	00:04	   3.028.159	641.695	+0,77	29.Tb1b2
> 18/41	00:09	   5.678.933	634.305	+0,78	29.Tb1b2 e7e6 30.c2c3 f7f6
> 19/30	00:11	   6.877.168	632.383	+0,90	29.Tb1b2 e7e6 30.c2c3 d6d5 31.Tb2c2
>Kg8f8 32.Kd2c1 d5d4 33.Kc1b2 Ta3xc3 34.Tc2xc3 d4xc3+ 35.Kb2xc3 Kf8e7 36.Kc3b4
>f7f5 37.e4xf5 e6xf5 38.Kb4xa4 Ke7e6 39.Ka4b5 Ke6e5
> 20/33	00:13	   8.180.084	631.520	+0,99	29.Tb1b2 e7e6 30.c2c3 d6d5 31.Tb2c2
>Kg8f8 32.Kd2c1 d5d4 33.Kc1b2 Ta3xc3 34.Tc2xc3 d4xc3+ 35.Kb2xc3 Kf8e7 36.Kc3b4
>Ke7d6 37.Kb4xa4 Kd6c5 38.g2g3 Kc5d4
> 21/36	00:16	  10.431.192	630.969	+1,15	29.Tb1b2 e7e6 30.c2c3 d6d5 31.Tb2c2
>Kg8f8 32.Kd2c1 d5d4 33.Kc1b2 Ta3xc3 34.Tc2xc3 d4xc3+ 35.Kb2xc3 Kf8e7 36.Kc3b4
>Ke7d6 37.Kb4xa4 Kd6e5 38.Ka4b5 f7f5 39.e4xf5
> 22/36	00:22	  14.229.778	630.249	+1,15	29.Tb1b2 e7e6 30.c2c3 d6d5 31.Tb2c2
>Kg8f8 32.Kd2c1 d5d4 33.Kc1b2 Ta3xc3 34.Tc2xc3 d4xc3+ 35.Kb2xc3 Kf8e7 36.Kc3b4
>Ke7d6 37.Kb4xa4 Kd6e5 38.Ka4b5 f7f5 39.e4xf5
> 23/45	00:35	  22.013.184	628.373	+1,39	29.Tb1b2 e7e6 30.c2c3 d6d5 31.e4xd5
>e6xd5 32.Kd2d3 Kg8f8 33.Tb2e2 h5h4 34.Kd3d4 Kf8g7
> 24/42	00:51	  32.038.319	628.781	+1,58	29.Tb1b2 e7e6 30.c2c3 d6d5 31.e4xd5
>e6xd5 32.Kd2d3 Kg8f8 33.Tb2e2 f7f5 34.Kd3d4 Kf8f7 35.Te2c2 Kf7e6 36.Kd4c5 d5d4
>37.Kc5xd4
> 25/42+	01:06	  41.767.724	630.751	+1,83	29.Tb1b2 e7e6
> 25/46	01:30	  55.746.061	620.904	+2,29	29.Tb1b2 e7e6 30.c2c3 d6d5 31.e4xd5
>e6xd5 32.Kd2d3 Kg8f8 33.Tb2e2 h5h4 34.Kd3d4 h4h3 35.g2xh3 h7h5 36.Te2c2 Ta3xa2
> 26/51+	02:04	  77.319.089	620.648	+2,54	29.Tb1b2 e7e6
> 26/51+	02:20	  87.791.249	624.706	+3,04	29.Tb1b2 e7e6
> 26/51	04:05	 150.854.450	614.165	+5,26	29.Tb1b2 Kg8g7 30.c2c3 Kg7f6 31.Kd2d3
>Kf6e5 32.Kd3c4 Ke5f4 33.Kc4b4 Ta3xa2 34.Tb2xa2 h5h4 35.e4e5 Kf4xe5
> 27/46	05:15	 191.496.475	607.381	+5,48	29.Tb1b2 Kg8g7 30.c2c3 Kg7f6 31.Kd2d3
>Kf6e5 32.Kd3c4 Ke5f4 33.Kc4b4 Ta3xa2 34.Tb2xa2 h5h4 35.Kb4xa4 h4h3 36.g2xh3
>Kf4xf3 37.Ka4b5 Kf3xe4
>
>Looks like a win for white ;-)
>
>Cheers,
>
>Martin

It is not a good test position because Rxh5 is not the only way to win the game.
It is the simplest from human point of view but it is not important for games
and I believe that engines can win this position as white with different moves.

Uri

Re: where are the difficult test positions ? please no positions that we Paul Jacobean Sacral 12:15:30 11/07/05
- Re: where are the difficult test positions ? please no positions that we Uri Blass 13:29:44 11/07/05
  - Re: where are the difficult test positions ? please no positions that we Paul Jacobean Sacral 14:05:47 11/07/05
    - Re: where are the difficult test positions ? please no positions that we Mridul Muralidharan 07:08:05 11/08/05
    - Re: where are the difficult test positions ? please no positions that we Uri Blass 15:06:56 11/07/05
      - Re: where are the difficult test positions ? please no positions that we Albert Silver 05:53:28 11/08/05
      - Re: where are the difficult test positions ? please no positions that we Paul Jacobean Sacral 15:35:10 11/07/05
        
        Re: where are the difficult test positions ? please no positions that we Dann Corbit 15:47:02 11/07/05
- Re: where are the difficult test positions ? please no positions that we Kurt Utzinger 12:31:31 11/07/05
  - Re: where are the difficult test positions ? please no positions that we Dann Corbit 16:18:47 11/07/05
    - Re: where are the difficult test positions ? please no positions that we Kurt Utzinger 21:41:27 11/07/05
      - Re: where are the difficult test positions ? please no positions that we Dann Corbit 10:36:29 11/08/05

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