Author: Mridul Muralidharan
Date: 21:02:15 11/10/05
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On November 10, 2005 at 08:57:28, Jonas Cohonas wrote: >>>That is cool! First released the programmer of Fruit a open sourse version of >>>fruit (no commercioal!) for all ua people. then come Thomas Gaksch an make a >>>stronger Toga 0.93 and later 0.94. After this the programmer of fruit make with >>>Toga-Ideas a stonger Fruit 2.1. After Fruit 2.1 com Thomas and make a clear >>>stronger Toga II 1.0 based on Fruit. >>> >>>The Programmer of Fruit see it and make an stronger Fruit 2.2 (or Fruit WCCC 05) >>>an goes commercial with his strong program an make money! >> >>The above is a ridiculous misinterpretation of history. You make it sound like >>Toga has been a major factor in the recent improvement of Fruit, and that lots >>of "ideas" (I put the word in quotes because almost all of these so-called >>"ideas" >>are common computer chess techniques which have been used in dozens of >>other programs since a decade or more) from Toga has been added to Fruit. >> >>The truth is that the only idea from Toga which was included in Fruit 2.1 was >>the use of recapture and passed pawn extensions at PV nodes. Fabien thinks >>this was an improvement (though I a not quite convinced), but it's definitely >>a really tiny and insignificant part of the total improvement from Fruit 2.0 to >>Fruit 2.1. The improvements from Fruit 2.1 to Fruit 2.2 are, as far as I can >>see, >>completely unrelated to anything found in Toga. >> >>You try to paint a picture where the authors of Fruit and Toga have had a >>rather balanced set of mutual benefits from having access to each other's >>code. Nothing could be further from the truth. Without Toga, Fruit would >>be almost exactly at the same level it is today. Without Fruit, Toga would >>probably be an average program, or not exist at all. >> >>>Cool. >>> >>>Next will come now a another stronger programmer there will implement a nice MV >>>Mode and if this mode will be stronger as there by Fruit 2.2, also the >>>programmer of Fruit can use this sourse (MV-Mode) to make a newer and stronger >>>program (and more money!) on the basis of good another programmer ideas! >> >>If Thomas (or anybody else) wants to keep their techniques secret, there is >>a simple way to do this: Write a closed-source program, and only distribute >>the executable. In the case of Toga, this is not possible, for legal reasons. >>Toga is based on a GPL program, and the GPL license states clearly that you >>cannot modify and redistribute the program without also distributing the >>code. When you decide to base your program on GPLed code, you have to >>live with the consequences. It is very simple, really. >> >>>But now he goes commercial, in in this case my opinion is, that he have no more >>>rights on own ideas other programmers more! >> >>He never had such a right, even when Fruit was open source. Everybody has >>always been free to keep their ideas to themselves if they prefer. We are >>talking about source code, not ideas. People who want to keep their secrets >>just have to use something else than GPLed software as a vehicle for their >>ideas. I don't understand how this can be difficult to understand, nor how >>anybody can consider it unfair. >> >>Tord > >Well put Tord, i agree with all of your points here and i don't understand why >it seems to be so hard to understand (for some) the logic behind them. >Or why there keep emerging beta versions with games to boot, when Fabien has >asked Thomas to release any "beta" versions and scource code whenever it is >publicly shared, that be games posted even. > >I am still not comfortable with the way Thomas treats the Toga-based on fruit >project, in my opinion he should realease any beta versions and scource code >before sending them to testers and let everyone join in, i mean wouldn't more >testing be done this way? well that is of course if one don't get the impression >that Thomas feels Toga is original work... > >So here is a question for Thomas G, why don't you set up a website where you >post all the beta versions along with scource code and _then_ ask your testers >along with the rest of us to test them? (at the same time) why do you feel it is >appropriate to treat Fabiens work like a closed scource project? > >Maybe it is just me here, and Fabien is totally ok with Thomas' handling of >this, but to me there is something fishy about the whole Toga deal. > >Regards >Jonas The difference between , 'good to do' and 'has to do' should not be missed. When he ships a binary version , he 'has to' also ship the source. But he does need not to share his private versions with everyone , and he can share that version with only a select few of his testers/friends/etc. He is free to publish results , post games , etc - the license does not forbid any of this. People miss this small detail and enter into flame wars :-) Ofcourse he could regularly post source zip's externally , he could even have a cvs available online with anon access , he could potentially do hundreds of things, but he need not. - Mridul
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