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Subject: Re: To NON-believers in EGTB benefits... (a better example)

Author: James T. Walker

Date: 07:14:48 11/21/05

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On November 21, 2005 at 07:52:35, Tord Romstad wrote:

>On November 21, 2005 at 04:28:47, Martin Baumung wrote:
>
>>Hello Uri,
>>
>>>How much time does your program need to find Kxb3 that is the only practical
>>>chance to save the game
>>
>>please enlighten us on how the game can be saved after Kxb3 - especially when
>>using the EGTBs.
>
>Uri did not claim that Kxb3 was a draw, only that it was the best *practical
>chance* to win the game.  Big difference.  After Kxb3, white has to find a
>very hard move in order to win.  Many opponents will not be able to find
>the right move (I almost certainly wouldn't).  After all other moves than
>Kxb3, the win is trivial.  Even I would be able to win.
>
>Another, less easily noticable problem of EGTBs is the general slowdown
>of the program.  It is very hard to guess how many wins a program misses
>because it wastes too much time probing tablebases when a slightly deeper
>search would have found an easy win.
>
>It is just not possible to prove the usefulness of EGTBs in practical
>play with a handful of positions.  The only way to measure the usefulness
>is to play a big number of games with and without EGTBs and compare the
>results.  So far, the overwhelming evidence points toward the conclusion
>that EGTB use is utterly insignificant in practical play (consider, for
>instance, the difference of 2 Elo points between Fruit 2.2 and Fruit 2.2.1
>on the CEGT list).
>
>I am not a non-believer in EGTBs, by the way (in fact, I doubt that such
>"non-believers" really exist).  The existence of 5-piece and 6-piece
>EGTBs is a tremendous contribution to the body of chess knowledge,
>and arguably one of the most exciting advances in chess theory over the
>last few decades.  I am just very disappointed by the immense lack of
>imagination current chess programmers (myself included) display when
>trying to use this new body of knowledge.
>
>Tord

Hello Tord,
It seems to me that the opposite of what Uri is trying to prove is true here.
Any program with 6 man tablebases will play Kxb3 instantly with no real search
needed.  This saves time and plays the desired move to prolong mate to the
ultimate.  This I think would be desireable especially vs humans or computers
without the use of tablebases.  So how does this prove tabelbases are
counter-productive?
Jim



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