Author: J.Dufek
Date: 14:24:14 12/10/05
Go up one level in this thread
On December 10, 2005 at 17:05:19, Uri Blass wrote: >On December 10, 2005 at 16:21:47, J.Dufek wrote: > >>On December 09, 2005 at 16:31:53, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On December 09, 2005 at 15:53:42, J.Dufek wrote: >>> >>>>On December 09, 2005 at 15:24:03, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On December 09, 2005 at 14:52:41, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On December 09, 2005 at 11:50:42, William Penn wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Rybka's analysis is fairly short to begin with, compared to most other engines. >>>>>>>It reaches its maximum after a few seconds, then it decreases at longer times. >>>>>>>For example here's an analysis of a position in infinite mode using the Shredder >>>>>>>Classic GUI. After 3 hours it is already showing a decrease of move information, >>>>>>>which decreases even further after 10 hours. The specific position doesn't >>>>>>>matter. I see this same pattern when analyzing any position for a long time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Engine: Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit (704 MB) by Vasik Rajlich >>>>>>>12.01 0:03 +1.35 32.h4 g4 33.h5 Qf8 34.Qe2 Nb4 35.Rh4 Qe8 36.Ne3 (300.979) >>>>>>>87 >>>>>>>13.01 0:06 +1.37 32.h4 g4 33.h5 Qf8 34.Qe2 Nb4 35.Rh4 Qe8 36.Ne3 Qe6 >>>>>>>(552.306) 90 >>>>>>>14.01 0:15 +1.36 32.h4 g4 33.h5 Qf8 34.Qe2 Nb4 35.h6 Qf7 36.Qd2 Qe6 >>>>>>>(1.362.839) 90 >>>>>>>15.01 2:02 +1.34 32.h4 Qf8 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Ne6 36.Rxg5 fxg5 >>>>>>>(9.586.923) 80 >>>>>>>16.01 3:01 +1.31 32.h4 Qf8 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Ne6 36.Rxg5 fxg5 >>>>>>>(14.741.441) 83 >>>>>>>17.01 5:30 +1.27 32.h4 Qf8 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Qg8 36.Rh4 Ne6 >>>>>>>(27.355.485) 84 >>>>>>>18.01 10:34 +1.19 32.h4 Qf8 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Qg8 36.Rh4 Rg6 >>>>>>>(52.200.357) 84 >>>>>>>19.01 18:28 +1.25 32.h4 Qf8 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Qg8 36.Rh4 Rg6 >>>>>>>(90.818.525) 83 >>>>>>>20.01 42:12 +1.13 32.h4 Qf8 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Qg8 36.Rah1 Ne6 >>>>>>>(200.052.005) 80 >>>>>>>21.01 92:04 +1.18 32.h4 Qf8 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Qg8 36.Rah1 Ne6 >>>>>>>(427.366.814) 79 >>>>>>>22.01 174:11 +1.14 32.h4 Qf8 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 (789.072.165) 77 >>>>>>>23.01 634:58 +1.24 32.h4 Qf8 33.hxg5 (2.860.235.585) 76 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>WP >>>>>> >>>>>>This is intentional and can _very_ easily be fixed. Please send me an email if >>>>>>you have a strong opinion about the matter. >>>>>> >>>>>>In my opinion, other engines talk too much. The ends of the PVs tend to be >>>>>>pretty silly. >>>>>> >>>>>>Vas >>>>> >>>>>I think that they do not talk enough. >>>>> >>>>>I think that it is productive to have an option to see more for correspondence >>>>>games like hash moves that you already remember at small depth for every move. >>>>> >>>>>I will be happy if rybka can write them to a text file. >>>>>The point is that one problem in analysis is that a program may suggest line >>>>>1.xx yy after many hours of search and you may need hours to see the reason that >>>>>it rejected 1.xx zz because 1.xx zz is not the pv line >>>>> >>>>>If the program can print to a text file the first move that it tries in the >>>>>first 3 plies then it may be productive. >>>>> >>>>>Example in the opening position suppose the pv is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3,Nxe5 >>>>> >>>>>I would like to see in text file something like >>>>>1)the following 19 lines for depth 2 >>>>>1.d4 d5 >>>>>1.c4 e5 >>>>>... >>>>>2)the following 19 lines for depth 3 >>>>>1.e4 a6 2.d4 >>>>>1.e4 a5 2.d4 >>>>>... >>>>> >>>>>If I do not see it then I may need a long analysis to understand why the program >>>>>rejected 1.d4 for white or may need a long time to understand why the program >>>>>rejected 1.e4 a6 for black >>>>> >>>>>Note that it may be productive also to have lines at bigger depth for thinking >>>>>lines that the computer considered for a long time and if the program considered >>>>>1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 for a long time then I would like to see the hash move after these >>>>>moves in order to understand why it rejected 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 for white. >>>>> >>>>>Uri >>>> >>>>Maybe i missed point of your post. In corr. games for lot of players is not >>>>problem use more computers for analysing position. Then is not problem 1PC-Rybka >>>>calculate best line, 2PC-Rybka(or other engine) calculate n-best lines and >>>>3PC-engine use deep analysis in Fritz-GUI or similiar in ChessAssistant... But >>>>still output in *.txt (from Fritz GUI) will be very nice feature (as minimum for >>>>possible crash GUI and losing analysis) >>> >>> >>>It is not a problem but suppose that you analyze the following nolot position >>> >>>[D]r2qrb1k/1p1b2p1/p2ppn1p/8/3NP3/1BN5/PPP3QP/1K3RR1 w - - 0 1 >>> >>>suppose that you even did not think about 1.e5 so it was not analyzed by other >>>programs and the engine shows line like >>>1.e5 Nh5 2.Qg6 d5 >>> >>>You are interested to know why it rejected the following lines >>>a)1.e5 dxe5 >>>b)1.e5 Nh5 2.Qg6 Qh4 >>> >>>You get no information about it and you may need hours of analysis to find out. >>> >>>If you get the important lines that it analyzed that are not in the pv in a text >>>file then you get the information. >>> >>>Uri >>? How do you found these lines? > >I analyzed these position and I remember that bruce moreland said that the main >line of ferret was line when black sacrifice the knight for no obvious reason. > >Bruce did not explain the reason for score of more than +5 of Ferret. > >I understood the reason later based on analysis and if there is an interest I >can post the tree that help yace to prove a score that is near +5 pawns for >white. > > > Because you analyze this positions before with >>engine(s)? How can engine can know, what do you need? Or do you need evalution >>for all positions after 2-3-4 halfmoves? > >I do not ask for evaluation but for specific lines. How can engine know, what lines with evalution do you need? > > >> This output will very slowdown >>searching and as i known only little about chess programing, for engines is in >>reality not important concrete variations - when he found variation with worse >>value than existing, then he go analyse next move... > >The output that I want will not slow down the engine (maybe it can do it 1% >slower that is not significant) >I may consider to change movei to give similiar output to a text file with next >version of movei. > >Uri
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