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Subject: Re: ATTN Vasik: Rybka SP?

Author: Bahram Namjou

Date: 21:36:50 12/15/05

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Thanks for the input...There are more evidence especially for slow games that I
played against other engines...I want him to know for a "possible"? benefit in
his final 1.2 version but as you mentioned more evidence still
necessary...thanks...bn


On December 16, 2005 at 00:19:10, Uri Blass wrote:

>On December 15, 2005 at 23:41:50, Ed Murak wrote:
>
>>On December 15, 2005 at 19:53:30, Bahram Namjou wrote:
>>
>>>I noticed that in slow games Rybka preview "slightly positional"(SP) seems to be
>>>even stronger? ...It needs more games of course, but I include a set of 15 games
>>>here...Any comment appreciate it...
>>>best regards
>>>bn
>>
>>>(book: shredder8, alternate color), P4,3.2 GhZ,128 Hash
>>>
>>>HOME-, 10'/40+10'/40+10'40  0
>>>
>>>1   Rybka 1.0 Preview 32-bit (SP)    1½1½1½½0½1½½½½0    8.5/15
>>>2   Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit (def)      0½0½0½½1½0½½½½1    6.5/15
>>
>>Hi Bahram,
>>
>>Vas hasn't yet replied, but I am sure he will see your results.
>>
>>Can I (~ beginner) take up your offer?
>>
>>Testing one version of an engine against another of the same engine can produce
>>results which distort actual strength differences. This subject has been debated
>>in many places for many years; I give you the majority (not consensus) opinion.
>>It is usually better to test both against one or more unrelated opponents.
>
>I am in the minority here.
>
>>
>>Testing on one computer (single core here) is also viewed as a little
>>sub-optimal; I imagine you had Ponder = Permanent Brain off (also debatable, but
>>generally thought best off even if CPU cycles can be shared evenly).  So a
>>setting which was better at guessing the opponent's move does not get the same
>>benefit as it would have if the two engines were running in separate computers.
>
>I think that there is no problem with ponder off.
>ponder off may be not the best when you want to compare different engines in
>real games because one engine may have bad time management with ponder off but
>when you compare 2 personality then it is logical to assume that both use the
>same time management.
>
>Usually there is no big difference between personalities in guessing the
>opponent moves.
>
>Uri
>
>>
>>Also, for 15 games, the margin of error is very large (as you noted).  We can
>>assess this making the usual normal-distribution assumptions, compute confidence
>>levels etc.  Another way is to look at this - if just one game had swung the
>>other way (possible <.001 second extra thought somewhere?), the end result would
>>have been 7.5-7.5, even.  In a 15 game match even 9-6 or 10-5 is not at all
>>conclusive proof of superiority.  If running under ChessBase, the GUI tells you
>>the relative ELO bounds at different confidence %s.
>>
>>So, no real conclusion possible at all, just a little evidence.
>
>Albert silver also played games with both versions and his result also give
>little evidence that slightly positional is better.
>
>I also played few games and slighly positional won 3.5-2.5 so we have more
>evidence.
>
>Uri



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