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Subject: Re: Secrets of Rybka and Fruit from my point of view

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 21:19:22 12/19/05

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On December 16, 2005 at 03:32:16, Vasik Rajlich wrote:

>On December 16, 2005 at 00:56:04, Zappa wrote:
>
>>On December 15, 2005 at 17:05:00, Sergei S. Markoff wrote:
>>
>>>1) Fruit.
>>>
>>>Fruit search seems to be primitive. "History pruning" is a variation of
>>>well-known idea. After implementing such method in SmarThink some years ago I
>>>named it "history-based pruning" and then changed to "ordering-based pruning".
>>>The outcome of such methods very depends of whole search model, but anyway
>>>history pruning is not the key to Fruit strength.
>>>
>>>To my mind, the key of Fruit strength is that the "Chess is the art of
>>>exchange". So, Fabien's idea about flexible game stages looks to be a beautiful
>>>way to improve positional play. Fruit can effectively consolidate the position.
>>>It simply knows when to excange to improve position. I think that it's the main
>>>key (cumulative with very good tuning of evaluation function). I think Fruit is
>>>very perspective. The main line of progress for this project, to my mind, is to
>>>add more complicated knowledge and intellectualize a search.
>>>
>>>2) Rybka
>>>
>>>Some time ago we discussed with Gian-Carlo Pascutto an idea of create special
>>>"SET-tables" with sets of piece-square values indexed by 1) material on the
>>>board; 2) king position; 3) pawn structure. Such tables can be calculated by
>>>analyzing a lot of games. That time I delayed my work in this area because I
>>>found other perspective things.
>>>You can see that Rybka executable contains a lot of precalculated tables. And
>>>also we all know that Rybka plays positional style. My version is that Rybka
>>>uses some variation of SET-approach. At all cases it uses some precalculated
>>>positional knowledge, but what sort of it? ;)
>>
>>My personal opinion:
>>
>>Fruit wins by 3 things: deep PV checking, mobility, and correctness.  I talked
>>about this with Fabien at Reykjavik.  When you have mobility, you are very
>>sensitive to being "driven back".  And when you can check your mainline 18-20
>>ply and not lose any mobility, its very probably you're playing a good move.
>>
>>Rybka: I'm starting to think that a lot of Rybka's strength is tactical.  Try
>>that baby out on a few test positions some time.  For example, the rapid TC CEGT
>>list has Rybka 55 rating points ahead of Fruit, while the slower BFF list has
>>Rybka only 15 rating points ahead of Fruit.
>>
>>anthony
>
>We need more data. I'll try to put it together when it's all ready.
>
>One thing people tell me is that Rybka tends to stick with her moves from lower
>depths more than other engines. This would also suggest better blitz play.
>
>Vas

In past programs sticking to the same move and showing same mainline was very
common. We called it back then preprocessors.

Vincent



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