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Subject: Re: My thoughts on these positions for what it's worth.

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 04:44:54 12/23/05

Go up one level in this thread


On December 23, 2005 at 05:40:21, Drexel,Michael wrote:

>On December 22, 2005 at 21:11:01, Graham Banks wrote:
>
>>Before you look at my brief assesment of each position, please be aware that I'm
>>not being critical of Harry here.
>>Every book, professional or amateur, has some dubious lines.
>>
>>
>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.30"]
>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>[White "PlayerY"]
>>>>>>[Black "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>[ECO "B20"]
>>>>>>[PlyCount "18"]
>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. e4 c5 2. c4 g6 3. d3 Bg7 4. f4 d6 5. h3 Nc6 6. Nf3 e6 7. Nc3 Nge7 8. g4 h5
>>>>>>9. gxh5 Rxh5 *
>>
>>Definitely dubious.
>>I've had one game go down this line: Fruit 2.2 v Ktulu 7.5 (1-0)
>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.27"]
>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>[White "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>[Black "PlayerY"]
>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>[ECO "D30"]
>>>>>>[PlyCount "17"]
>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. e3 Nf6 4. Nf3 e6 5. a3 Be7 6. Nbd2 O-O 7. b3 b6 8. Bb2 Ne8
>>>>>>9. Bd3 *
>>
>>Not too bad. I could live with this one.
>
>Yeah, a computer will play Nf6 here next. Do you play Nf6-e8-f6 maneuvers in
>your games too?
>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.30"]
>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>[White "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>[Black "PlayerY"]
>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>[ECO "B20"]
>>>>>>[PlyCount "16"]
>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. e4 c5 2. c4 d6 3. Ne2 Nc6 4. d4 Bd7 5. Nbc3 g6 6. d5 Ne5 7. Ng3 Bg7 8. Be2
>>>>>>h5 *
>>
>>Another dubious position.
>>Two games I've had:
>>Fruit 2.2 v CM10th Warrior (1-0)
>>CM10th Warrior v Ktulu 7.5 (draw)
>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.27"]
>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>[White "PlayerY"]
>>>>>>[Black "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>[ECO "D02"]
>>>>>>[PlyCount "16"]
>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. d4 Nf6 2. g3 d5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. Nf3 e6 5. O-O Bd7 6. Nc3 Bb4 7. Ne5 O-O 8. Bg5
>>>>>>Be8 *
>>
>>The resulting position is fairly equal, so probably okay.
>>One game: Ktulu 7.5 v Fruit 2.2 (1-0)
>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.30"]
>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>[White "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>[Black "PlayerY"]
>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>[ECO "E60"]
>>>>>>[PlyCount "17"]
>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Bf4 c5 4. e3 Bg7 5. Nc3 cxd4 6. exd4 O-O 7. Qd2 d5 8. Nf3
>>>>>>Nc6 9. cxd5 *
>>
>>Nothing wrong with the position that arises in my opinion.
>
>Black is better already after 9...Nxd5. White has not active piece play as
>compenstaion for the weak d4 pawn.
>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.26"]
>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>[White "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>[Black "PlayerY"]
>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>[ECO "A00"]
>>>>>>[PlyCount "16"]
>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. Nf3 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. Bf4 Bg7 6. e3 Nf6 7. Be2 d6 8. g4
>>>>>>O-O *
>>
>>I'm okay with this one too.
>
>8.g4 is horrible. It only weakens the position. I don't know where this Nonsense
>move comes from. According to BigDatabase 2005 this line was never played. No
>surprise...
>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.27"]
>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>[White "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>[Black "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>[ECO "D30"]
>>>>>>[PlyCount "17"]
>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. d4 e6 2. c4 d5 3. e3 Nf6 4. Qa4+ Nc6 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. Nc3 Bb4 7. Qc2 Ba5 8.
>>>>>>Nf3 Ncb4 9. Qb3 *
>>
>>Another dubious one.
>>One game: Shredder 9 v Ktulu 7.5 (1-0)
>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.30"]
>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>[White "PlayerY"]
>>>>>>[Black "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>[ECO "E01"]
>>>>>>[PlyCount "18"]
>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. e3 c5 5. Nc3 cxd4 6. exd4 dxc4 7. Bxc4 Nc6 8.
>>>>>>Nf3 Be7 9. O-O O-O *
>>
>>
>>I'm okay with this position.
>
>White is fine if he could play 10.g3-g2, but unfortunately this is not allowed.
>
>Michael

Rybka slightly positional believes that white is slighly better.
I wonder if engines could convince rybka in games that she is wrong?

I found only 2 games with this position in the CEGT games and rybka is winning
with white and black(I also give analysis by rybka slighly positional after the
games.

Here are the games
I think that it can be productive if you comment the CEGT games and tell us
about the mistake of engines and why they lose better positions(assuming that
black is really better).

Note that I claim nothing about the position.
My first impression is also that black has better position but
I consider myself too weak player to trust my first impression.

[Event "CEGT 40/40 2GHz"]
[Site "CEGT"]
[Date "2005.12.09"]
[Round "31.1"]
[White "Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit"]
[Black "Pharaon 3.3"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E00"]
[PlyCount "137"]
[EventDate "2005.??.??"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. e3 c5 5. Nc3 cxd4 6. exd4 dxc4 7. Bxc4 Nc6 8.
Nf3 Be7 9. O-O O-O 10. Bf4 b6 11. Qe2 Nxd4 12. Nxd4 Qxd4 13. Rfd1 Qc5 14. Ne4
Qa5 15. Nxf6+ Bxf6 16. Bb5 a6 17. Bc6 Ra7 18. b4 Qxb4 19. Bd6 Qxd6 20. Rxd6
Bxa1 21. Qe3 a5 22. Rd1 Bf6 23. Qxb6 Ra6 24. Qc7 a4 25. f4 a3 26. g4 h6 27. h4
Bxh4 28. g5 Rxc6 29. Qxc6 hxg5 30. Rb1 e5 31. Rb8 Be6 32. Rxf8+ Kxf8 33. Qa8+
Ke7 34. Qxa3+ Kf6 35. fxe5+ Kxe5 36. Qe3+ Kd5 37. a4 g4 38. Qd3+ Ke5 39. a5 Be7
40. Qb5+ Bd5 41. a6 f5 42. Qb2+ Ke6 43. Qxg7 Bc5+ 44. Kf1 Bf3 45. a7 Be4 46.
Qg6+ Ke5 47. Qe8+ Kf4 48. Qb8+ Kf3 49. a8=Q Bxa8 50. Qxa8+ Kf4 51. Qd5 Ba7 52.
Qd6+ Kf3 53. Qc6+ Ke3 54. Qc3+ Ke4 55. Qc2+ Ke3 56. Qf2+ Kd3 57. Qxf5+ Ke3 58.
Qf2+ Ke4 59. Qxa7 Kd5 60. Qd7+ Ke5 61. Qxg4 Kd5 62. Kf2 Ke5 63. Ke3 Kd6 64. Kd4
Kc6 65. Qe6+ Kb5 66. Qd7+ Ka5 67. Kc5 Ka6 68. Qe7 Ka5 69. Qa7# 1-0

[Event "CEGT 40/40 2GHz"]
[Site "CEGT"]
[Date "2005.12.04"]
[Round "3.2"]
[White "Naum 1.82"]
[Black "Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E00"]
[PlyCount "128"]
[EventDate "2005.??.??"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. e3 c5 5. Nc3 cxd4 6. exd4 dxc4 7. Bxc4 Nc6 8.
Nf3 Be7 9. O-O O-O 10. Bd3 b6 11. a3 Bb7 12. Be3 Rc8 13. Rc1 g6 14. Rc2 Ng4 15.
Qe2 Qd7 16. Bf4 Rfd8 17. Rd1 Nf6 18. h3 Qe8 19. Ba6 Bxa6 20. Qxa6 Kg7 21. Be3
Na5 22. b4 Nc4 23. Rdc1 Nxe3 24. fxe3 Rd7 25. Nb5 Rxc2 26. Rxc2 Qa8 27. Ne5 Qe4
28. Re2 Rxd4 29. Nxd4 Qxe5 30. Kh2 Bd6 31. Rg2 Qxe3 32. Nc2 Qc3 33. Qe2 Nh5 34.
Qe3 Bxg3+ 35. Rxg3 Qxc2+ 36. Rg2 Qc7+ 37. Kg1 Nf4 38. Rf2 e5 39. Kh2 Ne6 40. h4
f5 41. h5 e4+ 42. Kg1 Qe5 43. hxg6 f4 44. Qh3 h5 45. Rf1 e3 46. Qg2 Ng5 47.
Qb7+ Kh6 48. g7 e2 49. g8=N+ Kg6 50. Ne7+ Kf6 51. Nd5+ Kf5 52. Qc8+ Ne6 53. Re1
Qd4+ 54. Kg2 Qxd5+ 55. Kf2 f3 56. Qg8 Ke4 57. Qg6+ Kd4 58. Qg3 Ng5 59. Qf4+ Kc3
60. Qc1+ Kb3 61. Qb1+ Kxa3 62. Qa1+ Kb3 63. Rb1+ Kc4 64. Qa2+ Kd4 0-1




New game - Fruit 2.2, 38'/40+38'/40+38'/40
[D]r1bq1rk1/pp2bppp/2n1pn2/8/2BP4/2N2NP1/PP3P1P/R1BQ1RK1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit:

10.Bf4
  =  (0.11)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
10.Bf4
  =  (0.08)   Depth: 4   00:00:00
10.Bf4 Bd7
  =  (0.07)   Depth: 5   00:00:00
10.Bf4 Bd7 11.d5
  =  (0.12)   Depth: 6   00:00:00  23kN
10.Bf4 b6 11.Qe2 Bb7
  =  (0.10)   Depth: 7   00:00:01  81kN
10.Bf4 b6 11.Qe2 Bb7 12.Rfd1
  =  (0.09)   Depth: 8   00:00:01  118kN
10.Bf4 b6 11.Rc1 Bb7 12.a3 Rc8
  =  (0.05)   Depth: 9   00:00:03  219kN
10.Bf4 b6 11.Qe2 Bb7 12.Rfd1 Nb4 13.Ne5
  =  (0.08)   Depth: 10   00:00:09  669kN
10.Bf4 b6 11.Qe2 Bb7 12.Rfd1 Na5 13.Bd3 Rc8
  =  (0.07)   Depth: 11   00:00:15  1069kN
10.Bf4 b6 11.Qe2 Bb7 12.Rfd1 Na5 13.Bd3 Rc8 14.Rac1
  =  (0.09)   Depth: 12   00:00:33  2299kN
10.Bf4 b6 11.Qe2 Bb7 12.Rfd1 Na5 13.Bd3 Rc8 14.Rac1 Nd5
  =  (0.04)   Depth: 13   00:01:02  4259kN
10.Re1 Qb6 11.Na4 Qb4 12.Bd3 Rd8 13.Bd2 Qd6 14.Bf4 Qd7
  =  (0.09)   Depth: 13   00:02:53  11495kN
10.Re1 Qb6 11.Na4 Qb4 12.Bd3 Rd8 13.Bd2 Qd6 14.Bf4 Qd7
  =  (0.09)   Depth: 14   00:03:22  13436kN
10.Re1 b6 11.d5 Na5 12.Bd3 exd5 13.Ne5 Bb7 14.Bf4 d4
  =  (0.04)   Depth: 15   00:06:49  26235kN
10.Bf4 b6 11.Qa4 Bd7 12.Rad1 h6 13.Qc2 Rc8 14.Qe2 g5
  =  (0.08)   Depth: 15   00:08:28  32662kN
10.Bf4 b6 11.Qa4 Bd7 12.Rad1 Re8 13.Rfe1 a6 14.Qc2 Nb4
  =  (0.10)   Depth: 16   00:15:05  56817kN

(,  23.12.2005)



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