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Subject: Re: My thoughts on these positions for what it's worth.

Author: Drexel,Michael

Date: 05:12:56 12/23/05

Go up one level in this thread


On December 23, 2005 at 07:44:54, Uri Blass wrote:

>On December 23, 2005 at 05:40:21, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>
>>On December 22, 2005 at 21:11:01, Graham Banks wrote:
>>
>>>Before you look at my brief assesment of each position, please be aware that I'm
>>>not being critical of Harry here.
>>>Every book, professional or amateur, has some dubious lines.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.30"]
>>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>>[White "PlayerY"]
>>>>>>>[Black "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>>[ECO "B20"]
>>>>>>>[PlyCount "18"]
>>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. e4 c5 2. c4 g6 3. d3 Bg7 4. f4 d6 5. h3 Nc6 6. Nf3 e6 7. Nc3 Nge7 8. g4 h5
>>>>>>>9. gxh5 Rxh5 *
>>>
>>>Definitely dubious.
>>>I've had one game go down this line: Fruit 2.2 v Ktulu 7.5 (1-0)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.27"]
>>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>>[White "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>>[Black "PlayerY"]
>>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>>[ECO "D30"]
>>>>>>>[PlyCount "17"]
>>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. e3 Nf6 4. Nf3 e6 5. a3 Be7 6. Nbd2 O-O 7. b3 b6 8. Bb2 Ne8
>>>>>>>9. Bd3 *
>>>
>>>Not too bad. I could live with this one.
>>
>>Yeah, a computer will play Nf6 here next. Do you play Nf6-e8-f6 maneuvers in
>>your games too?
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.30"]
>>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>>[White "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>>[Black "PlayerY"]
>>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>>[ECO "B20"]
>>>>>>>[PlyCount "16"]
>>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. e4 c5 2. c4 d6 3. Ne2 Nc6 4. d4 Bd7 5. Nbc3 g6 6. d5 Ne5 7. Ng3 Bg7 8. Be2
>>>>>>>h5 *
>>>
>>>Another dubious position.
>>>Two games I've had:
>>>Fruit 2.2 v CM10th Warrior (1-0)
>>>CM10th Warrior v Ktulu 7.5 (draw)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.27"]
>>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>>[White "PlayerY"]
>>>>>>>[Black "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>>[ECO "D02"]
>>>>>>>[PlyCount "16"]
>>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. d4 Nf6 2. g3 d5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. Nf3 e6 5. O-O Bd7 6. Nc3 Bb4 7. Ne5 O-O 8. Bg5
>>>>>>>Be8 *
>>>
>>>The resulting position is fairly equal, so probably okay.
>>>One game: Ktulu 7.5 v Fruit 2.2 (1-0)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.30"]
>>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>>[White "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>>[Black "PlayerY"]
>>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>>[ECO "E60"]
>>>>>>>[PlyCount "17"]
>>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Bf4 c5 4. e3 Bg7 5. Nc3 cxd4 6. exd4 O-O 7. Qd2 d5 8. Nf3
>>>>>>>Nc6 9. cxd5 *
>>>
>>>Nothing wrong with the position that arises in my opinion.
>>
>>Black is better already after 9...Nxd5. White has not active piece play as
>>compenstaion for the weak d4 pawn.
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.26"]
>>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>>[White "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>>[Black "PlayerY"]
>>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>>[ECO "A00"]
>>>>>>>[PlyCount "16"]
>>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. Nf3 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. Bf4 Bg7 6. e3 Nf6 7. Be2 d6 8. g4
>>>>>>>O-O *
>>>
>>>I'm okay with this one too.
>>
>>8.g4 is horrible. It only weakens the position. I don't know where this Nonsense
>>move comes from. According to BigDatabase 2005 this line was never played. No
>>surprise...
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.27"]
>>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>>[White "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>>[Black "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>>[ECO "D30"]
>>>>>>>[PlyCount "17"]
>>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. d4 e6 2. c4 d5 3. e3 Nf6 4. Qa4+ Nc6 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. Nc3 Bb4 7. Qc2 Ba5 8.
>>>>>>>Nf3 Ncb4 9. Qb3 *
>>>
>>>Another dubious one.
>>>One game: Shredder 9 v Ktulu 7.5 (1-0)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[Event "EventX"]
>>>>>>>[Site "SiteX"]
>>>>>>>[Date "2005.10.30"]
>>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>>[White "PlayerY"]
>>>>>>>[Black "PlayerX"]
>>>>>>>[Result "*"]
>>>>>>>[ECO "E01"]
>>>>>>>[PlyCount "18"]
>>>>>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. e3 c5 5. Nc3 cxd4 6. exd4 dxc4 7. Bxc4 Nc6 8.
>>>>>>>Nf3 Be7 9. O-O O-O *
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm okay with this position.
>>
>>White is fine if he could play 10.g3-g2, but unfortunately this is not allowed.
>>
>>Michael
>
>Rybka slightly positional believes that white is slighly better.
>I wonder if engines could convince rybka in games that she is wrong?
>
>I found only 2 games with this position in the CEGT games and rybka is winning
>with white and black(I also give analysis by rybka slighly positional after the
>games.

No surprise, Naum and Pharaon are much weaker than Rybka and the position is not
that much worse for white.

>Here are the games
>I think that it can be productive if you comment the CEGT games and tell us
>about the mistake of engines and why they lose better positions(assuming that
>black is really better).

I do not want to analyse this irrelevant line now in detail but in the Pharaon
game 11...Sxd4? was a huge mistake. 11...Bb7 Rfd1 (or Rad1) Nb4 followed by Nbd5
is correct. Black has a small advantage.

Michael




>Note that I claim nothing about the position.
>My first impression is also that black has better position but
>I consider myself too weak player to trust my first impression.
>
>[Event "CEGT 40/40 2GHz"]
>[Site "CEGT"]
>[Date "2005.12.09"]
>[Round "31.1"]
>[White "Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit"]
>[Black "Pharaon 3.3"]
>[Result "1-0"]
>[ECO "E00"]
>[PlyCount "137"]
>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>
>1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. e3 c5 5. Nc3 cxd4 6. exd4 dxc4 7. Bxc4 Nc6 8.
>Nf3 Be7 9. O-O O-O 10. Bf4 b6 11. Qe2 Nxd4 12. Nxd4 Qxd4 13. Rfd1 Qc5 14. Ne4
>Qa5 15. Nxf6+ Bxf6 16. Bb5 a6 17. Bc6 Ra7 18. b4 Qxb4 19. Bd6 Qxd6 20. Rxd6
>Bxa1 21. Qe3 a5 22. Rd1 Bf6 23. Qxb6 Ra6 24. Qc7 a4 25. f4 a3 26. g4 h6 27. h4
>Bxh4 28. g5 Rxc6 29. Qxc6 hxg5 30. Rb1 e5 31. Rb8 Be6 32. Rxf8+ Kxf8 33. Qa8+
>Ke7 34. Qxa3+ Kf6 35. fxe5+ Kxe5 36. Qe3+ Kd5 37. a4 g4 38. Qd3+ Ke5 39. a5 Be7
>40. Qb5+ Bd5 41. a6 f5 42. Qb2+ Ke6 43. Qxg7 Bc5+ 44. Kf1 Bf3 45. a7 Be4 46.
>Qg6+ Ke5 47. Qe8+ Kf4 48. Qb8+ Kf3 49. a8=Q Bxa8 50. Qxa8+ Kf4 51. Qd5 Ba7 52.
>Qd6+ Kf3 53. Qc6+ Ke3 54. Qc3+ Ke4 55. Qc2+ Ke3 56. Qf2+ Kd3 57. Qxf5+ Ke3 58.
>Qf2+ Ke4 59. Qxa7 Kd5 60. Qd7+ Ke5 61. Qxg4 Kd5 62. Kf2 Ke5 63. Ke3 Kd6 64. Kd4
>Kc6 65. Qe6+ Kb5 66. Qd7+ Ka5 67. Kc5 Ka6 68. Qe7 Ka5 69. Qa7# 1-0
>
>[Event "CEGT 40/40 2GHz"]
>[Site "CEGT"]
>[Date "2005.12.04"]
>[Round "3.2"]
>[White "Naum 1.82"]
>[Black "Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit"]
>[Result "0-1"]
>[ECO "E00"]
>[PlyCount "128"]
>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>
>1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. e3 c5 5. Nc3 cxd4 6. exd4 dxc4 7. Bxc4 Nc6 8.
>Nf3 Be7 9. O-O O-O 10. Bd3 b6 11. a3 Bb7 12. Be3 Rc8 13. Rc1 g6 14. Rc2 Ng4 15.
>Qe2 Qd7 16. Bf4 Rfd8 17. Rd1 Nf6 18. h3 Qe8 19. Ba6 Bxa6 20. Qxa6 Kg7 21. Be3
>Na5 22. b4 Nc4 23. Rdc1 Nxe3 24. fxe3 Rd7 25. Nb5 Rxc2 26. Rxc2 Qa8 27. Ne5 Qe4
>28. Re2 Rxd4 29. Nxd4 Qxe5 30. Kh2 Bd6 31. Rg2 Qxe3 32. Nc2 Qc3 33. Qe2 Nh5 34.
>Qe3 Bxg3+ 35. Rxg3 Qxc2+ 36. Rg2 Qc7+ 37. Kg1 Nf4 38. Rf2 e5 39. Kh2 Ne6 40. h4
>f5 41. h5 e4+ 42. Kg1 Qe5 43. hxg6 f4 44. Qh3 h5 45. Rf1 e3 46. Qg2 Ng5 47.
>Qb7+ Kh6 48. g7 e2 49. g8=N+ Kg6 50. Ne7+ Kf6 51. Nd5+ Kf5 52. Qc8+ Ne6 53. Re1
>Qd4+ 54. Kg2 Qxd5+ 55. Kf2 f3 56. Qg8 Ke4 57. Qg6+ Kd4 58. Qg3 Ng5 59. Qf4+ Kc3
>60. Qc1+ Kb3 61. Qb1+ Kxa3 62. Qa1+ Kb3 63. Rb1+ Kc4 64. Qa2+ Kd4 0-1
>
>
>
>
>New game - Fruit 2.2, 38'/40+38'/40+38'/40
>[D]r1bq1rk1/pp2bppp/2n1pn2/8/2BP4/2N2NP1/PP3P1P/R1BQ1RK1 w - - 0 1
>
>Analysis by Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit:
>
>10.Bf4
>  =  (0.11)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
>10.Bf4
>  =  (0.08)   Depth: 4   00:00:00
>10.Bf4 Bd7
>  =  (0.07)   Depth: 5   00:00:00
>10.Bf4 Bd7 11.d5
>  =  (0.12)   Depth: 6   00:00:00  23kN
>10.Bf4 b6 11.Qe2 Bb7
>  =  (0.10)   Depth: 7   00:00:01  81kN
>10.Bf4 b6 11.Qe2 Bb7 12.Rfd1
>  =  (0.09)   Depth: 8   00:00:01  118kN
>10.Bf4 b6 11.Rc1 Bb7 12.a3 Rc8
>  =  (0.05)   Depth: 9   00:00:03  219kN
>10.Bf4 b6 11.Qe2 Bb7 12.Rfd1 Nb4 13.Ne5
>  =  (0.08)   Depth: 10   00:00:09  669kN
>10.Bf4 b6 11.Qe2 Bb7 12.Rfd1 Na5 13.Bd3 Rc8
>  =  (0.07)   Depth: 11   00:00:15  1069kN
>10.Bf4 b6 11.Qe2 Bb7 12.Rfd1 Na5 13.Bd3 Rc8 14.Rac1
>  =  (0.09)   Depth: 12   00:00:33  2299kN
>10.Bf4 b6 11.Qe2 Bb7 12.Rfd1 Na5 13.Bd3 Rc8 14.Rac1 Nd5
>  =  (0.04)   Depth: 13   00:01:02  4259kN
>10.Re1 Qb6 11.Na4 Qb4 12.Bd3 Rd8 13.Bd2 Qd6 14.Bf4 Qd7
>  =  (0.09)   Depth: 13   00:02:53  11495kN
>10.Re1 Qb6 11.Na4 Qb4 12.Bd3 Rd8 13.Bd2 Qd6 14.Bf4 Qd7
>  =  (0.09)   Depth: 14   00:03:22  13436kN
>10.Re1 b6 11.d5 Na5 12.Bd3 exd5 13.Ne5 Bb7 14.Bf4 d4
>  =  (0.04)   Depth: 15   00:06:49  26235kN
>10.Bf4 b6 11.Qa4 Bd7 12.Rad1 h6 13.Qc2 Rc8 14.Qe2 g5
>  =  (0.08)   Depth: 15   00:08:28  32662kN
>10.Bf4 b6 11.Qa4 Bd7 12.Rad1 Re8 13.Rfe1 a6 14.Qc2 Nb4
>  =  (0.10)   Depth: 16   00:15:05  56817kN
>
>(,  23.12.2005)



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