Author: Vasik Rajlich
Date: 05:43:50 12/24/05
Go up one level in this thread
On December 24, 2005 at 05:46:25, Uri Blass wrote: >On December 24, 2005 at 05:21:52, Vasik Rajlich wrote: > >>On December 24, 2005 at 03:19:46, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On December 24, 2005 at 03:05:23, William Penn wrote: >>> >>>>Vas, >>>> >>>>Sorry, "hanging" or "hung" was a poor choice of words. (I was a little bit >>>>despondent when I wrote that.) What that implies did not happen. The engine and >>>>GUI were still fully functional and active. There was no problem with the >>>>various operations. >>>> >>>>What I meant to say was that nothing further appeared in the analysis display >>>>window after about 9 minutes. The engine was still active. It just wasn't >>>>providing any more PV outputs at greater depths. Possibly it would have, if I >>>>had let it go for a longer time, but I doubt it. >>>> >>>>Actually in this position, there is no doubt that the best move was already >>>>selected after 9 minutes. The game is almost over, a quick win. In that case it >>>>looks like Rybka simply decided there is no purpose for further analysis. So it >>>>is not necessarily a bad behavior, it is just different compared to how other >>>>engines behave. Naturally we would like to see the analysis and PV outputs >>>>continue, but that's not essential if Rybka's primary objective is simply to win >>>>the game. >>>> >>>>--------- >>>> >>>>I just ran the following long analysis in infinite mode which shows something >>>>different. The nodes and nodes/second numbers are behaving strangely after level >>>>20.01. It looks like the nodes counter is recycling to zero after about >>>>500,000,000 nodes by my estimate. We used to see something similar in the older >>>>CB engines. Easy to fix, they just had to make their counter able to count to >>>>bigger numbers. I would guess this happened because it looks like you tripled >>>>those output numbers for cosmetic reasons... :) >>>> >>>> (game#243) >>>> >>>>[D]5qrk/pp1r3p/n1p2p2/P1p1pNp1/4P2P/1P1PQ1P1/2P2PK1/R6R w - - >>>> >>>>Engine: Rybka 1.01 Preview 2 32-bit (704 MB) by Vasik Rajlich >>>> (run 3-PV for a few minutes) >>>>15 2:36 +1.31 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Ne6 >>>> 36.Rxg5 fxg5 37.Rh1 Qe8 38.Qd1 b6 >>>> 39.axb6 (16.943.250) 110 >>>>15 3:18 +1.06 33.Ra4 g4 34.Rc4 h5 35.Rd1 Rg6 >>>> 36.Ra1 Kg8 37.Kh2 Qe8 38.f3 gxf3 (21.431.195) 110 >>>>15 2:59 +1.03 33.Qd2 Nc7 34.hxg5 Rxg5 35.Qc3 Nb5 >>>> 36.Qc4 Nd4 37.Rh4 Nxf5 38.exf5 Qd6 >>>> 39.Qe6 Qd5+ (19.457.399) 110 >>>> (then reduce to 1 PV) >>>>11.01 0:01 +1.32 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Ne6 >>>> 36.Rxg5 fxg5 37.Rh1 Ng7 38.Qg4 Ne6 >>>> 39.Rh6 Qe8 (195.954) 111 >>>>12.01 0:02 +1.33 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Ne6 >>>> 36.Rxg5 fxg5 37.Rh1 Ng7 38.Qg4 Ne6 >>>> 39.Rh6 Qe8 (267.392) 110 >>>>13.01 0:04 +1.28 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Ne6 >>>> 36.Rxg5 fxg5 37.Rh1 Ng7 38.Qg4 Ne6 >>>> 39.Rh6 Qe8 (513.071) 108 >>>>14.01 0:12 +1.30 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Ne6 >>>> 36.Rxg5 fxg5 37.Rh1 Ng7 38.Qg4 Ne6 >>>> 39.Rh6 Qe8 (1.386.246) 110 >>>>15.01 0:24 +1.22 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Ne6 >>>> 36.Rxg5 fxg5 37.Rh1 Ng7 38.Qg4 Ne6 >>>> 39.Rh6 Qe8 (2.608.983) 110 >>>>16.01 1:29 +1.30 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Rg6 35.Rh5 Kg8 >>>> 36.Nh4 Rgg7 37.Rh6 Nb4 38.Rxf6 Qd8 >>>> 39.Rc1 (9.846.132) 113 >>>>17.01 5:49 +1.23 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Rxh5 >>>> 36.Qxh5 Ne6 37.a6 b6 38.Rh1 Qg8 >>>> 39.Qh6 Qg5 (38.723.297) 113 >>>>18.01 12:09 +1.18 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Qg8 >>>> 36.Rh6 Qf8 37.Rah1 Ne6 38.Kg1 Kg8 >>>> 39.R1h4 Qd8 (81.225.326) 114 >>>>19.01 26:31 +1.14 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Qg8 >>>> 36.Rh6 Qf8 37.Rah1 Ne6 38.R1h4 Kg8 >>>> 39.Kg1 Qd8 (178.202.522) 114 >>>>20.01 46:03 +1.26 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Qg8 >>>> 36.Rh6 Qf8 37.Rah1 Ne6 38.R1h4 Kg8 >>>> 39.Kg1 Qd8 (309.766.912) 114 >>>>21.01 84:55 +1.22 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 Qg8 >>>> 36.Rh6 Qf8 37.Rah1 Ne6 38.R1h4 b6 >>>> 39.Qd1 b5 (35.438.207) 7 >>>>22.01 184:10 +1.20 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Qf3 Nc7 35.Rh5 (188.955.970) 17 >>>>23.01 554:16 +1.19 33.hxg5 Rxg5 34.Rad1 (46.840.269) 1 >>>> >>>>WP >>> >>>This is strange because 500,000,000 nodes or 600,000,000 nodes that are supposed >>>to be searched after 554 minutes are not enough to be bigger than 2^31 so I see >>>no logical reason for the number of nodes to do down. >>> >>>If the real number of nodes is higher and in printing you divide them by 4 or 8 >>>then I can understand it but I see no reason to do it. >>> >>>Uri >> >>This was also fixed in Rybka 1.01. This version now gives credit for >>time-consuming "search like" work, as otherwise the knps can drop horribly in >>some positions. >> >>Vas > >There is no problem if the nps drop. >I think that you should use the usual definition for nodes. > >The definition is simple. >Every move that you make in the tree is a node. > >I do not see the problem with having lower number of nodes per second. >If your evaluation detect tactical ideas like possible fork of the opponent in >the next move and detecting it is expensive you can explain it in to the >customers without explaining exactly what you do. > >Uri Uri, this is also what I originally thought. In fact, for an expert user, the nps fluctuations can even be more interesting. In Rybka 1.0 Beta, lower nps indicates more tactically interesting things happening near the tips. The problem is that too many users are disturbed when this happens and think that something is wrong with the engine or their computer. Eventually, GUIs will give the users much better information anyway. I don't want to put too much effort into educating users about the current GUIs. Vas
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