Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 20:07:17 01/29/06
Go up one level in this thread
On January 29, 2006 at 22:32:31, Stuart Cracraft wrote: >On January 29, 2006 at 21:40:18, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On January 29, 2006 at 19:10:52, Stuart Cracraft wrote: >> >>>On January 29, 2006 at 10:45:28, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On January 29, 2006 at 09:52:57, Kurt Utzinger wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 29, 2006 at 09:38:56, Majd Al-Ansari wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>I have a completely different result. I see quite a big difference and many >>>>>>"won" games are now won instead of drawn. >>>>> >>>>> Please be good enough to present those results >>>>> here. This would be of great interest. >>>>> Kurt >>>>> >>>>>I have checked out quite a few games >>>>>>and I will say that EGTB's greately improve endgame play for Rybka, and plug a >>>>>>lot of holes. >>>>> >>>>> This is contrary to long experience with other engines >>>>> where you can almost see no difference regarding overall >>>>> score after playing some hundred games. >>>>> Kurt >>>>> >>>>> EGTB are especially important if the other side has them. Not >>>>>>having them will leak a lot of points. Still there is quite a ways to go for >>>>>>Rybka when endgames are concerned. It still plays some endings horribly. But >>>>>>the gaps are getting smaller and smaller and I am very interested to see how >>>>>>Rybka will be with beta 14 (EG knowledge added). >>>> >>>> >>>>One note: >>>> >>>>Playing EGTB vs NoEGTB to see if EGTB helps is probably the wrong way to measure >>>>the experiment. It is more useful to take a known good program _with_ EGTBs, >>>>and play your favorite engine against it, with your engine not using 'em, then >>>>playing again with 'em. If the opponent doesn't have 'em, then your not having >>>>them might not expose the problem as well as making sure your opponent can >>>>always win those tricky cases and you now have to rely only on your eval to hang >>>>on... >>> >>>Also - I think the sample size has to be MUCH larger than what we are talking. >>> >>>A few hundred games is not going to do it. >>> >>>Start with a few thousand for the EGTB and work your way up from there. >>> >>>Stuart >> >> >>The general rule-of-thumb is that the closer two programs are in skill, the more >>games you need to really see whether one is better or not.... > >Yes - I'd be interested to know of any papers that have been done to quanity >the magnitude of the difference and the magnitude of games both. > >Stuart Never seen any. Just seen enough results over time that proved this to be an accurate assessment. :)
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