Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 06:22:43 02/16/06
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On February 16, 2006 at 06:21:57, Djordje Vidanovic wrote: >On February 15, 2006 at 10:20:18, Zappa wrote: > >>So I dropped by to see how my old buddies in CCC were doing, and found a massive >>flamewar :) This is far more to my liking than dry test results, so I thought >>I'd weigh in with a few comments. >> >>The majority of members in CCC seem to be unable to think rationally about >>Rybka. I saw the following argument about 500X: "Vasik is violating the >>charter" "But Rybka is so awesome". Clearly this is complete idiocy. The law >>is intended to apply to everyone equally, regardless of whether or not they have >>an awesome engine. >> >>I left (and this is not a coming back post) because I didn't like reading tons >>of testing posts. However, the majority of people here appear to like it here. >> From what I read in the flamewar Skinner seems correct that Vasik violated the >>charter, but perhaps rather than crucifying Vasik (or Skinner), the charter >>should be amended so the club serves the interest of the majority. It really >>seems like the majority of people don't mind his "commerical posts" - so what's >>the problem? >> >>I also read Enrico's post on Rybka's nodecount. Vasik claimed it was the result >>of a bug. I read that as "my node count obfuscation algorithm has a bug and >>will be fixed posthaste". If you look at Enrico's numbers, its obvious that >>Rybka is really searching at 2-3M+ nps on big hardware. >> >>So, Vasik, please tell me: why would you would want to hide the node count of >>Rybka? >> >>anthony > > >Interesting post. And very telling. Demands some kind of reply, at least from >a curious member of the CCC (but surely not from Vasik, as the question you ask >is rather impertinent and irrelevant for the masses): why wouldn't you, >Anthony, want to release your program so that Chrilly Donninger might try his >disassembling skills on Zappa as he did with Rybka? A reminder for you: the >verdict was that Rybka had no other program's code in it... Actually i do have a few zappa world champs 2005 version here. It's not even close to Fruit. Evaluation of Rybka is very close to Fruit. He added some and lobotomized other things. Zappa's evaluation is totally different from fruit. I am for example debugging a position here from a testgame from diep. Where Diep says here +2.3 for white, Zappa says +1.0. Rybka says 0.1 there and Fruit also says 0.1 there. Extensions. Of course extensions in rybka and fruit are completely similar with this exception that rybka is doing them more consequent. What fruit is doing is a subset from Rybka there. Zappa is totally different there. Extensions in zappa are very similar like in Diep. Most tactical shots get seen at the same plydepth. That's not something i am worried about. That's something i am PROUD at :) Kingsafety of Zappa is *totally* different from Rybka/Fruit. Where Rybka is doing what Fruit is doing and a few parameters extra, Zappa has a 100% different kingsafety. Way more agressive. Rybka is a passive beancounter there compared to Zappa. Zappa in some respects is more agressive here than Junior. Now of course the funny thing is if we compare the datastructure of rybka with zappa, then we get a total different picture. What the non-difference between zappa and rybka is in that respect, you'll have to wait until Donninger starts dissassembling Zappa :) It's unlikely that ever happens. Please note that there is better assembly programmers than Chrilly. Frans Morsch is really a lot better there. Chrilly is 4th division in assembly. He doesn't even see the diff between Crafty and Rybka in some sense, as i pointed him out in a private email there. Note that i'm 20th division there. I do not have time to dissassemble even my own program, let alone others. Frans Morsch is major league in assembly. Eric van Rietpaap perhaps one of the best major league players there. However in general spoken, if rybka would have been released like Fruit version 3.0, a major rewrite to bitboards of fruit and some additions to the codebase, then the fuzz about Rybka in this respect would've been a lot smaller. Anyway, question should be, what is the next engine to be completely Fruit based? What i can predict you, that will be most likely either an US engine or a german engine. Both countries share something in mentality there which nearly no other country on this planet has. Vincent >If Rybka's code is messy and obfuscated, so be it. What's your code like remains >to be seen, of course :-). LOL. >Djordje
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