Author: Uri Blass
Date: 07:38:04 02/16/06
Go up one level in this thread
On February 16, 2006 at 09:22:43, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On February 16, 2006 at 06:21:57, Djordje Vidanovic wrote: > >>On February 15, 2006 at 10:20:18, Zappa wrote: >> >>>So I dropped by to see how my old buddies in CCC were doing, and found a massive >>>flamewar :) This is far more to my liking than dry test results, so I thought >>>I'd weigh in with a few comments. >>> >>>The majority of members in CCC seem to be unable to think rationally about >>>Rybka. I saw the following argument about 500X: "Vasik is violating the >>>charter" "But Rybka is so awesome". Clearly this is complete idiocy. The law >>>is intended to apply to everyone equally, regardless of whether or not they have >>>an awesome engine. >>> >>>I left (and this is not a coming back post) because I didn't like reading tons >>>of testing posts. However, the majority of people here appear to like it here. >>> From what I read in the flamewar Skinner seems correct that Vasik violated the >>>charter, but perhaps rather than crucifying Vasik (or Skinner), the charter >>>should be amended so the club serves the interest of the majority. It really >>>seems like the majority of people don't mind his "commerical posts" - so what's >>>the problem? >>> >>>I also read Enrico's post on Rybka's nodecount. Vasik claimed it was the result >>>of a bug. I read that as "my node count obfuscation algorithm has a bug and >>>will be fixed posthaste". If you look at Enrico's numbers, its obvious that >>>Rybka is really searching at 2-3M+ nps on big hardware. >>> >>>So, Vasik, please tell me: why would you would want to hide the node count of >>>Rybka? >>> >>>anthony >> >> >>Interesting post. And very telling. Demands some kind of reply, at least from >>a curious member of the CCC (but surely not from Vasik, as the question you ask >>is rather impertinent and irrelevant for the masses): why wouldn't you, >>Anthony, want to release your program so that Chrilly Donninger might try his >>disassembling skills on Zappa as he did with Rybka? A reminder for you: the >>verdict was that Rybka had no other program's code in it... > >Actually i do have a few zappa world champs 2005 version here. > >It's not even close to Fruit. Evaluation of Rybka is very close to Fruit. He >added some and lobotomized other things. > >Zappa's evaluation is totally different from fruit. > >I am for example debugging a position here from a testgame from diep. >Where Diep says here +2.3 for white, Zappa says +1.0. Rybka says 0.1 there and >Fruit also says 0.1 there. > >Extensions. Of course extensions in rybka and fruit are completely similar with >this exception that rybka is doing them more consequent. What fruit is doing is >a subset from Rybka there. > >Zappa is totally different there. Extensions in zappa are very similar like in >Diep. Most tactical shots get seen at the same plydepth. > >That's not something i am worried about. That's something i am PROUD at :) > >Kingsafety of Zappa is *totally* different from Rybka/Fruit. > >Where Rybka is doing what Fruit is doing and a few parameters extra, >Zappa has a 100% different kingsafety. Way more agressive. Rybka is a passive >beancounter there compared to Zappa. Zappa in some respects is more agressive >here than Junior. > >Now of course the funny thing is if we compare the datastructure of rybka with >zappa, then we get a total different picture. > >What the non-difference between zappa and rybka is in that respect, you'll have >to wait until Donninger starts dissassembling Zappa :) > >It's unlikely that ever happens. > >Please note that there is better assembly programmers than Chrilly. Frans Morsch >is really a lot better there. Chrilly is 4th division in assembly. >He doesn't even see the diff between Crafty and Rybka in some sense, as i >pointed him out in a private email there. Note that i'm 20th division there. I >do not have time to dissassemble even my own program, let alone others. > >Frans Morsch is major league in assembly. Eric van Rietpaap perhaps one of the >best major league players there. > >However in general spoken, if rybka would have been released like Fruit version >3.0, a major rewrite to bitboards of fruit and some additions to the codebase, >then the fuzz about Rybka in this respect would've been a lot smaller. > >Anyway, question should be, what is the next engine to be completely Fruit >based? > >What i can predict you, that will be most likely either an US engine or a german >engine. Both countries share something in mentality there which nearly no other >country on this planet has. > >Vincent I do not understand what is your proof that rybka is fruit based. rybka has not some endgame knowledge that fruit has. Here is an example without tablebases New game - Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit [D]8/1K6/2P5/8/8/8/8/5kq1 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Fruit 2.1: 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 ³ (-0.41) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 ³ (-0.41) Depth: 2/7 00:00:00 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Ka7 Qa2+ 3.Kb7 Qd5+ 4.Kb8 ³ (-0.42) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Kc8 Ke2 4.Kd7 Qb5+ 5.Kd8 ³ (-0.43) Depth: 4/13 00:00:00 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Kc8 Ke2 4.Kd7 Qb5+ 5.Kd8 ³ (-0.43) Depth: 5/15 00:00:00 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Kc8 Ke2 4.Kd7 Qd4+ 5.Ke7 Qg4 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 6/17 00:00:00 57kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qb3+ 5.Ka7 Qa3+ 6.Kb8 Qb4+ 7.Ka7 Qg4 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 7/18 00:00:00 95kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qg8 6.Kb7 Qb3+ 7.Ka7 Qe6 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 8/21 00:00:00 121kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qe4+ 7.Kb8 Qb4+ 8.Ka7 Qg4 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 9/21 00:00:00 167kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qb3+ 7.Kc6 Qa4+ 8.Kb7 Qb4+ 9.Ka7 Qg4 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 10/23 00:00:01 220kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qb3+ 7.Kc6 Qa4+ 8.Kb7 Qe4+ 9.Kb8 Qb4+ 10.Ka7 Qg4 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 11/25 00:00:01 302kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qb3+ 7.Kc6 Qa4+ 8.Kb7 Qb5+ 9.Ka7 Qc5+ 10.Kb7 Qb4+ 11.Ka7 Qg4 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 12/27 00:00:01 407kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qb3+ 7.Kc6 Qa4+ 8.Kb7 Qb5+ 9.Ka8 Qc5 10.Kb8 Qb4+ 11.Ka7 Qg4 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 13/31 00:00:01 533kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qb3+ 7.Kc6 Qa4+ 8.Kb7 Qb5+ 9.Ka7 Qc5+ 10.Kb7 Qe7 11.Kb8 Qb4+ 12.Ka7 Qg4 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 14/31 00:00:01 699kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qb3+ 7.Kc6 Qa4+ 8.Kb7 Qb5+ 9.Ka7 Qc6 10.Kb8 Qd6 11.Kb7 Qb4+ 12.Ka7 Qg4 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 15/34 00:00:01 893kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qb3+ 7.Kc6 Qa4+ 8.Kb7 Qb5+ 9.Ka7 Qc6 10.Kb8 Qb6+ 11.Ka8 Qc5 12.Kb8 Qb4+ 13.Ka7 Qg4 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 16/34 00:00:02 1143kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qe4+ 7.Kb8 Qb4+ 8.Ka7 Qc5+ 9.Kb7 Qb5+ 10.Ka7 Qf5 11.Kb7 Qb1+ 12.Ka7 Qc2 13.Kb7 Qb3+ 14.Ka7 Qc3 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 17/34 00:00:02 1325kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qe4+ 7.Kb8 Qb4+ 8.Ka7 Qc5+ 9.Kb7 Qb5+ 10.Ka7 Qa4+ 11.Kb7 Qb3+ 12.Ka7 Qc2 13.Kb7 Qh7 14.Kb8 Qb1+ 15.Ka7 Qf5 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 18/35 00:00:02 1569kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qe4+ 7.Kb8 Qb4+ 8.Ka7 Qc5+ 9.Kb7 Qb5+ 10.Ka7 Qf5 11.Kb7 Qf3+ 12.Kb8 Qf4 13.Kb7 Qf7 14.Kb8 Qb3+ 15.Ka7 Qc3 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 19/35 00:00:02 1919kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qe4+ 7.Kb8 Qb4+ 8.Ka7 Qc5+ 9.Kb7 Qb5+ 10.Ka7 Qf5 11.Kb7 Qb1+ 12.Ka7 Qa1+ 13.Kb7 Qg7 14.Kb8 Qg3 15.Kb7 Qb3+ 16.Ka7 Qc3 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 20/37 00:00:02 2385kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qe4+ 7.Kb8 Qb4+ 8.Ka7 Qc5+ 9.Kb7 Qb5+ 10.Ka7 Qf5 11.Kb7 Qb1+ 12.Ka7 Qa1+ 13.Kb7 Qg7 14.Kb8 Qg3 15.Kb7 Qf3+ 16.Kb8 Qb3+ ³ (-0.45) Depth: 21/39 00:00:03 3052kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qe4+ 7.Kb8 Qb4+ 8.Ka7 Qc5+ 9.Kb7 Qb5+ 10.Ka7 Qf5 11.Kb7 Qh7 12.Kb8 Qb1+ 13.Ka7 Qa1+ 14.Kb7 Qg7 15.Kb8 Qg3 16.Kb7 Qb3+ ³ (-0.45) Depth: 22/40 00:00:03 3885kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qb3+ 7.Ka7 Qc2 8.Kb7 Qe4+ 9.Kb8 Qb4+ 10.Ka7 Qc5+ 11.Kb7 Qe7 12.Kb8 Qd6 13.Kb7 Qd7 14.Kb8 Qb5+ 15.Ka8 Qf5 16.Kb8 Qb1+ ³ (-0.45) Depth: 23/40 00:00:03 4967kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qb3+ 7.Ka7 Qc2 8.Kb7 Qe4+ 9.Kb8 Qb4+ 10.Ka7 Qg4 11.Kb8 Qf4 12.Kb7 Qf3+ 13.Kb8 Qg3 14.Kb7 Qg7 15.Kb8 Qe5 16.Kb7 Qb5+ ³ (-0.45) Depth: 24/41 00:00:04 6511kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qb3+ 7.Ka7 Qc2 8.Kb7 Qe4+ 9.Kb8 Qb4+ 10.Ka7 Qa4+ 11.Kb7 Qd7 12.Kb8 Qd6 13.Kb7 Qe7 14.Kb8 Qe5 15.Kb7 Qb5+ 16.Ka8 Qf5 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 25/41 00:00:04 8371kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qb3+ 7.Ka7 Qc2 8.Kb7 Qe4+ 9.Kb8 Qb4+ 10.Ka7 Qc3 11.Kb8 Qe5 12.Kb7 Qe7 13.Kb8 Qd6 14.Kb7 Qd7 15.Kb8 Qb5+ 16.Ka8 Qf5 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 26/43 00:00:05 10839kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qb3+ 7.Ka7 Qc2 8.Kb7 Qe4+ 9.Kb8 Qb4+ 10.Ka7 Qg4 11.Kb8 Qg3 12.Kb7 Qg7 13.Kb8 Qe5 14.Kb7 Qe7 15.Kb8 Qd6 16.Kb7 Qd7 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 27/45 00:00:06 13773kN 1.c7 Qg2+ 2.Kb8 Qb2+ 3.Ka7 Qa2+ 4.Kb7 Qd5+ 5.Ka7 Qe6 6.Kb7 Qb3+ 7.Ka7 Qc2 8.Kb7 Qe4+ 9.Kb8 Qb4+ 10.Ka7 Qf8 11.Kb7 Qf3+ 12.Kb8 Qg3 13.Kb7 Qg7 14.Kb8 Qe5 15.Kb7 Qe7 16.Kb8 Qd6 ³ (-0.45) Depth: 28/45 00:00:07 17367kN (, 16.02.2006) New game - Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit 8/1K6/2P5/8/8/8/8/5kq1 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Rybka 1.01 Beta 13d 32-bit: 1.c7 -+ (-8.67) Depth: 3 00:00:00 1.c7 Qg7 -+ (-8.74) Depth: 4 00:00:00 1.c7 Qg7 2.Kc6 -+ (-9.29) Depth: 5 00:00:00 1.c7 Qg7 2.Kc6 Qg2+ 3.Kd7 -+ (-9.29) Depth: 6 00:00:00 7kN 1.c7 Qg7 2.Kc6 Qg2+ 3.Kd7 Qh3+ 4.Kd8 -+ (-9.29) Depth: 7 00:00:00 12kN 1.c7 Qg7 2.Kc6 Qg2+ 3.Kd7 Qh3+ 4.Kd8 Qd3+ 5.Ke7 -+ (-9.29) Depth: 8 00:00:00 20kN 1.c7 Qg7 2.Kc6 Qg2+ 3.Kd7 Qh3+ 4.Kd8 Qd3+ 5.Ke7 Qf5 6.Kd8 -+ (-9.29) Depth: 9 00:00:01 32kN 1.c7 Qg7 2.Kc6 Qg2+ 3.Kd7 Qh3+ 4.Kd8 Qd3+ 5.Ke7 Qf5 6.Kd8 -+ (-9.29) Depth: 10 00:00:01 48kN 1.c7 Qg7 2.Kc6 Qg2+ 3.Kd7 Qh3+ 4.Kd8 Qd3+ 5.Ke7 Qf5 6.Kd8 Qg5+ 7.Kd7 -+ (-9.29) Depth: 11 00:00:01 69kN 1.c7 Qg7 2.Kc6 Qg2+ 3.Kd7 Qh3+ 4.Kd8 Qd3+ 5.Ke7 Qf5 6.Kd8 Qg5+ 7.Kd7 Qg4+ -+ (-9.29) Depth: 12 00:00:02 98kN 1.c7 Qg7 2.Kc6 Qg2+ 3.Kd7 Qh3+ 4.Kd8 Qd3+ 5.Ke7 Qf5 6.Kd8 Qg5+ 7.Kd7 Qg4+ -+ (-9.29) Depth: 13 00:00:03 138kN (, 16.02.2006) I do not believe that vasik started from fruit and modified it(otherwise we could expect it to have the relevant knowledge for this position). Uri
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.