Author: Vasik Rajlich
Date: 11:41:28 02/16/06
Go up one level in this thread
On February 16, 2006 at 09:22:43, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On February 16, 2006 at 06:21:57, Djordje Vidanovic wrote: > >>On February 15, 2006 at 10:20:18, Zappa wrote: >> >>>So I dropped by to see how my old buddies in CCC were doing, and found a massive >>>flamewar :) This is far more to my liking than dry test results, so I thought >>>I'd weigh in with a few comments. >>> >>>The majority of members in CCC seem to be unable to think rationally about >>>Rybka. I saw the following argument about 500X: "Vasik is violating the >>>charter" "But Rybka is so awesome". Clearly this is complete idiocy. The law >>>is intended to apply to everyone equally, regardless of whether or not they have >>>an awesome engine. >>> >>>I left (and this is not a coming back post) because I didn't like reading tons >>>of testing posts. However, the majority of people here appear to like it here. >>> From what I read in the flamewar Skinner seems correct that Vasik violated the >>>charter, but perhaps rather than crucifying Vasik (or Skinner), the charter >>>should be amended so the club serves the interest of the majority. It really >>>seems like the majority of people don't mind his "commerical posts" - so what's >>>the problem? >>> >>>I also read Enrico's post on Rybka's nodecount. Vasik claimed it was the result >>>of a bug. I read that as "my node count obfuscation algorithm has a bug and >>>will be fixed posthaste". If you look at Enrico's numbers, its obvious that >>>Rybka is really searching at 2-3M+ nps on big hardware. >>> >>>So, Vasik, please tell me: why would you would want to hide the node count of >>>Rybka? >>> >>>anthony >> >> >>Interesting post. And very telling. Demands some kind of reply, at least from >>a curious member of the CCC (but surely not from Vasik, as the question you ask >>is rather impertinent and irrelevant for the masses): why wouldn't you, >>Anthony, want to release your program so that Chrilly Donninger might try his >>disassembling skills on Zappa as he did with Rybka? A reminder for you: the >>verdict was that Rybka had no other program's code in it... > >Actually i do have a few zappa world champs 2005 version here. > >It's not even close to Fruit. Evaluation of Rybka is very close to Fruit. He >added some and lobotomized other things. > >Zappa's evaluation is totally different from fruit. > >I am for example debugging a position here from a testgame from diep. >Where Diep says here +2.3 for white, Zappa says +1.0. Rybka says 0.1 there and >Fruit also says 0.1 there. > >Extensions. Of course extensions in rybka and fruit are completely similar with >this exception that rybka is doing them more consequent. What fruit is doing is >a subset from Rybka there. > >Zappa is totally different there. Extensions in zappa are very similar like in >Diep. Most tactical shots get seen at the same plydepth. > >That's not something i am worried about. That's something i am PROUD at :) > >Kingsafety of Zappa is *totally* different from Rybka/Fruit. > >Where Rybka is doing what Fruit is doing and a few parameters extra, >Zappa has a 100% different kingsafety. Way more agressive. Rybka is a passive >beancounter there compared to Zappa. Zappa in some respects is more agressive >here than Junior. > >Now of course the funny thing is if we compare the datastructure of rybka with >zappa, then we get a total different picture. > >What the non-difference between zappa and rybka is in that respect, you'll have >to wait until Donninger starts dissassembling Zappa :) > >It's unlikely that ever happens. > >Please note that there is better assembly programmers than Chrilly. Frans Morsch >is really a lot better there. Chrilly is 4th division in assembly. >He doesn't even see the diff between Crafty and Rybka in some sense, as i >pointed him out in a private email there. Note that i'm 20th division there. I >do not have time to dissassemble even my own program, let alone others. > >Frans Morsch is major league in assembly. Eric van Rietpaap perhaps one of the >best major league players there. > >However in general spoken, if rybka would have been released like Fruit version >3.0, a major rewrite to bitboards of fruit and some additions to the codebase, >then the fuzz about Rybka in this respect would've been a lot smaller. > >Anyway, question should be, what is the next engine to be completely Fruit >based? > >What i can predict you, that will be most likely either an US engine or a german >engine. Both countries share something in mentality there which nearly no other >country on this planet has. > >Vincent > Diep on the other hand is from the TSCP family. http://www.cssonlinemasters.vs243093.vserver.de/20052005/Vorrunde/vrD.html Vas >>If Rybka's code is messy and obfuscated, so be it. What's your code like remains >>to be seen, of course :-). LOL. >>Djordje
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