Author: Peter Kappler
Date: 13:12:31 02/16/06
Go up one level in this thread
On February 16, 2006 at 14:41:28, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >On February 16, 2006 at 09:22:43, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: > >>On February 16, 2006 at 06:21:57, Djordje Vidanovic wrote: >> >>>On February 15, 2006 at 10:20:18, Zappa wrote: >>> >>>>So I dropped by to see how my old buddies in CCC were doing, and found a massive >>>>flamewar :) This is far more to my liking than dry test results, so I thought >>>>I'd weigh in with a few comments. >>>> >>>>The majority of members in CCC seem to be unable to think rationally about >>>>Rybka. I saw the following argument about 500X: "Vasik is violating the >>>>charter" "But Rybka is so awesome". Clearly this is complete idiocy. The law >>>>is intended to apply to everyone equally, regardless of whether or not they have >>>>an awesome engine. >>>> >>>>I left (and this is not a coming back post) because I didn't like reading tons >>>>of testing posts. However, the majority of people here appear to like it here. >>>> From what I read in the flamewar Skinner seems correct that Vasik violated the >>>>charter, but perhaps rather than crucifying Vasik (or Skinner), the charter >>>>should be amended so the club serves the interest of the majority. It really >>>>seems like the majority of people don't mind his "commerical posts" - so what's >>>>the problem? >>>> >>>>I also read Enrico's post on Rybka's nodecount. Vasik claimed it was the result >>>>of a bug. I read that as "my node count obfuscation algorithm has a bug and >>>>will be fixed posthaste". If you look at Enrico's numbers, its obvious that >>>>Rybka is really searching at 2-3M+ nps on big hardware. >>>> >>>>So, Vasik, please tell me: why would you would want to hide the node count of >>>>Rybka? >>>> >>>>anthony >>> >>> >>>Interesting post. And very telling. Demands some kind of reply, at least from >>>a curious member of the CCC (but surely not from Vasik, as the question you ask >>>is rather impertinent and irrelevant for the masses): why wouldn't you, >>>Anthony, want to release your program so that Chrilly Donninger might try his >>>disassembling skills on Zappa as he did with Rybka? A reminder for you: the >>>verdict was that Rybka had no other program's code in it... >> >>Actually i do have a few zappa world champs 2005 version here. >> >>It's not even close to Fruit. Evaluation of Rybka is very close to Fruit. He >>added some and lobotomized other things. >> >>Zappa's evaluation is totally different from fruit. >> >>I am for example debugging a position here from a testgame from diep. >>Where Diep says here +2.3 for white, Zappa says +1.0. Rybka says 0.1 there and >>Fruit also says 0.1 there. >> >>Extensions. Of course extensions in rybka and fruit are completely similar with >>this exception that rybka is doing them more consequent. What fruit is doing is >>a subset from Rybka there. >> >>Zappa is totally different there. Extensions in zappa are very similar like in >>Diep. Most tactical shots get seen at the same plydepth. >> >>That's not something i am worried about. That's something i am PROUD at :) >> >>Kingsafety of Zappa is *totally* different from Rybka/Fruit. >> >>Where Rybka is doing what Fruit is doing and a few parameters extra, >>Zappa has a 100% different kingsafety. Way more agressive. Rybka is a passive >>beancounter there compared to Zappa. Zappa in some respects is more agressive >>here than Junior. >> >>Now of course the funny thing is if we compare the datastructure of rybka with >>zappa, then we get a total different picture. >> >>What the non-difference between zappa and rybka is in that respect, you'll have >>to wait until Donninger starts dissassembling Zappa :) >> >>It's unlikely that ever happens. >> >>Please note that there is better assembly programmers than Chrilly. Frans Morsch >>is really a lot better there. Chrilly is 4th division in assembly. >>He doesn't even see the diff between Crafty and Rybka in some sense, as i >>pointed him out in a private email there. Note that i'm 20th division there. I >>do not have time to dissassemble even my own program, let alone others. >> >>Frans Morsch is major league in assembly. Eric van Rietpaap perhaps one of the >>best major league players there. >> >>However in general spoken, if rybka would have been released like Fruit version >>3.0, a major rewrite to bitboards of fruit and some additions to the codebase, >>then the fuzz about Rybka in this respect would've been a lot smaller. >> >>Anyway, question should be, what is the next engine to be completely Fruit >>based? >> >>What i can predict you, that will be most likely either an US engine or a german >>engine. Both countries share something in mentality there which nearly no other >>country on this planet has. >> >>Vincent >> > >Diep on the other hand is from the TSCP family. > >http://www.cssonlinemasters.vs243093.vserver.de/20052005/Vorrunde/vrD.html > >Vas > >>>If Rybka's code is messy and obfuscated, so be it. What's your code like remains >>>to be seen, of course :-). LOL. >>>Djordje
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