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Subject: Re: The Rybka Flamewar & question for Vasik

Author: Vasik Rajlich

Date: 01:35:24 02/17/06

Go up one level in this thread


On February 16, 2006 at 21:32:48, Rolf Tueschen wrote:

>On February 16, 2006 at 21:07:02, Chessfun wrote:
>
>>On February 16, 2006 at 19:24:41, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>>
>>>On February 16, 2006 at 18:37:18, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On February 16, 2006 at 18:28:31, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On February 16, 2006 at 17:58:27, Chessfun wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>As this table shows other engines like Spike 1.0 and SmarThink are far closer to
>>>>>>Fruit than Rybka. As for Toga the numbers speak for themselves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://kd.lab.nig.ac.jp/chess/CCRL-4040/engine-distance-table-all.shtml
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sarah.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I doubt that these results have a bigger meaning but just an impression: it
>>>>>looks as if Hiarcs has bought something from Chess Tiger.
>>>>
>>>>I think that simply not enough moves were played.
>>>>
>>>>98 moves are not enough.
>>>>
>>>>Uri
>>>
>>>I saw it here
>>>
>>>http://kd.lab.nig.ac.jp/chess/CCRL-4040/eval-difference-table-best-limited.shtml
>>>
>>>but you are right, this is strange. Allegedly it is 150 games but only 98 moves
>>>counted... So therefore all in all I concluded that the tables have no value.
>>>Also the background of the tables isnt discussed at all. Why this and what
>>>exactly... That isnt sound. I see we two are agreeing here, Uri.
>>
>>
>>Rolf,
>>
>>You should read more before posting something like that. It isn't strange at all
>>the pair you made an assumption about have played only a couple of games.
>>http://kd.lab.nig.ac.jp/chess/CCRL-4040/pairwise-results-all.shtml
>>Plus you didn't look at the link I provided and read what was written. Then you
>>make an assumption about a difference table after I posted distance.
>>
>>Sarah
>
>
>Excuse me, but I didnt talk anything about you. I was just not impressed enough
>by these tables on that page. That's all. Of course I can also assume that there
>are some theories behind that sort of tables. But I say that there should be
>more explained in such a table. It is simply something you expect if you see
>such a table. Nothing against those who made these tables. They did what they
>could - I think. But still one should speak out what one thinks. Criticism isnt
>something negative. Critic clarifies. Perhaps you also consider that I'm not
>known for doing tests myself. That's correct. But still I once had studied such
>problems and the graphic presentation. And from these memories I post something
>from time to time. In my case you should forget all what you normally assumed
>when you read something from younger people. I do never write something against
>a certain "name" or such; I dont know someone, with some exceptions. It's only
>the topic that interests me. - What I liked in these tables is the colored
>details. Very interesting.
>
>Let me just summarize my critic for you, Sarah. If you want to present your
>results in such a table and you create different colors and almost 90% of the
>cases fall into a specific category (here greenish), then such a presentation
>makes no sense. Because, ask yourself, what is the conclusion? And if everything
>is almost the same, why then so many categories? Know what I mean? A graphical
>picture should always clarify a context that is otherwise a bit difficult to
>understand. But this here is so simple that you dont need all the details, a
>short statement would have been better.
>
>And at last Vince made a good add-on which leads me to the conviction that such
>presentations make _here_ no sense at all, because what you get ISNT really what
>it seems. The results were completely different with little changes in the
>program code. And I didnt even know this when I wrote my own critic. But somehow
>I could smell it, that here something was pretended (with all good intentions)
>which doesnt stand.

What this experiment measures is the extent to which the evaluation concepts of
the programs overlap.

Indeed, a drastic change in evaluation concept could be accomplished with a very
small change to the code.

Likewise, you could code a very similar (or identical) evaluation concept in
totally different code.

Vas



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