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Subject: Re: On the Harry Schnapp book - intended primarily to Dieter Eberle

Author: GŁnther Simon

Date: 09:44:39 02/21/06

Go up one level in this thread


On February 21, 2006 at 12:10:27, Uri Blass wrote:

>On February 21, 2006 at 12:04:05, GŁnther Simon wrote:
>
>>On February 21, 2006 at 11:19:27, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On February 21, 2006 at 01:30:34, Gabor Szots wrote:
>>>
>>>>On February 20, 2006 at 16:19:48, Dieter Eberle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Hi Gabor,
>>>>>none of the lines you posted is bad. They may not be played every day by
>>>>>Kasparov but if you check them with a strong engine like Rybka beta13b you will
>>>>>find out that the maximal deviation from zero is far below +/- 1, a good result
>>>>>for a general book in my opinion.
>>>>>Astonished, Dieter
>>>>
>>>>Hi Dieter,
>>>>
>>>>I submitted all games with the HS book. I did not claim all the lines were bad.
>>>>I said the were bizarre. Most of them is too passive to be good. If an engine
>>>>comes out of the opening with -0.65 (as was the case in Spike vs. Pro Deo) it
>>>>will probably lose against an opponent of its own caliber.
>>>>
>>>>GŠbor
>>>
>>>I do not agree with it.
>>>
>>>-0.65 is not a good predictor of result in the opening.
>>>
>>>take the following position from the noomen match
>>>
>>>r2q1rk1/3nppbp/b2p1np1/2pP4/8/2N2NP1/PP2PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 w - - 0 11
>>>
>>>Glaurung say 0.65 pawns for white after a minute of search
>>>
>>>
>>
>>...snip... AFAIK we speak about -0.65 for _White_! after book end
>>and that is quite different and IMHO already downhill.
>>
>>Guenther
>
>I do not see the difference.
>
>If +0.65 for white can happen when white is not better then +0.65 for black also
>can happen when black is not better.
>
>Uri


Uri are you joking? Of course evals are not evenly distributed for
the colours, as White has an advantage for the first move, which
is even exaggerated by the evals of chess programs.
I see equal evals for normal openings between -0.20 - +0.90 (from W POV)
and vice versa but by no means -0.65 from W POV after book end
in _early_ game stage. Of course I don't speak about book lines which
finish in endgames and also not about evals from weak programs.

Test sample for 15 start positions(12 plies) with reversed colours
played by different opponents at 40/15min P4 2.66Ghz:

GS15.PGN opening positions
01: 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 e6 3. b3 Be7 4. Bb2 Bf6 5. Nc3 c5 6. cxd5 exd5 (A13 Reti)
02: 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 Bb4 5. Bg2 O-O 6. O-O Re8 (A29 English
Four Knights)
03: 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. g3 b6 5. Bg2 Bb7 6. O-O Be7 (A30 English
Symmetrical)
04: 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. h4 h6 (B18 Caro Kann
Main)
05: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Nf6 6. Bg5 e6 (B62 Sicilian
Richter/Rauser)
06: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 e6 (B84 Sicilian
Scheveninger)
07: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 (C18 French
Winawer)
08: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. Bb3 d6 (C55 Two
Knights)
09: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 (C88 Spanish)
10: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6 5. Bxc4 c5 6. O-O a6 (D27 QGA)
11: 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 c6 3. d4 e6 4. Nbd2 Nf6 5. g3 Be7 6. Bg2 O-O (D30 QGD)
12: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Be7 5. Nf3 h6 6. Bh4 O-O (D53 QGD Main)
13: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 (D85
Gruenfeld Main)
14: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 O-O 5. Bd3 c5 6. Nge2 d5 (E48
NimzoIndian Modern)
15: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 O-O 5. Nf3 d6 6. Be2 e5 (E92 KingsIndian
Main)

x = game number;

for >= 31, x-30
if x = odd, x+1
x /2
= start position number

1,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,0-1,7. +0.19   7... +0.19
2,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,1-0,7. +0.24   7... -0.18
3,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,0-1,7. +0.06   7... +0.22
4,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,1-0,7. -0.10   7... -0.04
5,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,1/2-1/2,7. +0.17   7... +0.08
6,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,1/2-1/2,7. +0.03   7... -0.06
7,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,0-1,7. +0.54   7... -0.03
8,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,1-0,7. +0.51   7... -0.44
9,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,0-1,7. +0.54   7... -0.65
10,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,0-1,7. +0.73   7... -0.36
11,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,0-1,7. +0.59   7... -0.76
12,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,1-0,7. +0.84   7... -0.51
13,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,1/2-1/2,7. -0.37   7... -0.43
14,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,1-0,7. +0.49   7... +0.48
15,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,0-1,7. -0.04   7... -0.03
16,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,1/2-1/2,7. +0.00   7... +0.01
17,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,1/2-1/2,7. +0.07   7... +0.01
18,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,1/2-1/2,7. +0.05   7... -0.10
19,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,0-1,7. +0.41   7... -0.17
20,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,1/2-1/2,7. +0.58   7... -0.40
21,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,1/2-1/2,7. +0.16   7... +0.36
22,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,1-0,7. -0.29   7... -0.13
23,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,1-0,7. +0.06   7... -0.24
24,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,1-0,7. +0.40   7... -0.04
25,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,1-0,7. +0.17   7... -0.52
26,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,1/2-1/2,7. +0.70   7... -0.19
27,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,0-1,7. +0.09   7... -0.01
28,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,1/2-1/2,7. +0.14   7... +0.03
29,AnMon 5.60,Spike 1.1,1/2-1/2,7. +0.27   7... -0.67
30,Spike 1.1,AnMon 5.60,1-0,7. +0.64   7... -0.30
31,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,1-0,7. +0.22   7... -0.06
32,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,1/2-1/2,7. +0.15   7... +0.04
33,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,1-0,7. -0.14   7... -0.18
34,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,0-1,7. +0.12   7... +0.12
35,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,0-1,7. +0.26   7... -0.04
36,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,1-0,7. +0.12   7... -0.16
37,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,1-0,7. +0.31   7... -0.15
38,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,0-1,7. +0.28   7... -0.24
39,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,0-1,7. +0.75   7... -0.28
40,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,0-1,7. +0.35   7... -0.44
41,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,1-0,7. +0.69   7... -0.50
42,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,1/2-1/2,7. +0.54   7... -0.65
43,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,1-0,7. -0.30   7... +0.26
44,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,1-0,7. +0.00   7... +0.36
45,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,1-0,7. +0.11   7... -0.06
46,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,1/2-1/2,7. +0.14   7... -0.10
47,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,1-0,7. +0.19   7... -0.10
48,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,1-0,7. +0.07   7... -0.19
49,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,1/2-1/2,7. +0.41   7... -0.28
50,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,1/2-1/2,7. +0.32   7... -0.24
51,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,1-0,7. +0.04   7... +0.00
52,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,1-0,7. +0.07   7... -0.01
53,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,0-1,7. +0.34   7... -0.43
54,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,1/2-1/2,7. +0.53   7... -0.42
55,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,1/2-1/2,7. +0.15   7... -0.40
56,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,0-1,7. +0.64   7... -0.15
57,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,1/2-1/2,7. +0.06   7... -0.07
58,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,1-0,7. +0.15   7... +0.01
59,Jonny 2.83,Glaurung_102BH,1/2-1/2,7. +0.56   7... -0.60
60,Glaurung_102BH,Jonny 2.83,1-0,7. +0.51   7... -0.61
61,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,0-1,7. +0.26   7... -0.07
62,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.14   7... -0.32
63,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,0-1,7. +0.03   7... +0.15
64,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. -0.15   7... -0.02
65,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,1/2-1/2,7. +0.35   7... +0.01
66,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.12   7... +0.04
67,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,1-0,7. +0.52   7... -0.47
68,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.54   7... -0.42
69,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,0-1,7. +0.75   7... -0.30
70,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,0-1,7. +0.60   7... -0.58
71,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,0-1,7. +0.78   7... -0.62
72,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.85   7... -0.71
73,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,1/2-1/2,7. +0.60   7... +0.20
74,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. -0.20   7... -0.44
75,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,1/2-1/2,7. +0.18   7... +0.02
76,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.12   7... -0.06
77,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,0-1,7. -0.17   7... -0.06
78,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.02   7... +0.02
79,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,1-0,7. +0.66   7... -0.65
80,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.65   7... -0.63
81,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,1/2-1/2,7. +0.04   7... +0.02
82,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. -0.06   7... +0.10
83,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,1-0,7. +0.44   7... -0.17
84,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1/2-1/2,7. -0.03   7... -0.38
85,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,0-1,7. +0.97   7... -0.41
86,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.38   7... -0.93
87,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,1-0,7. +0.27   7... +0.14
88,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.03   7... -0.37
89,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Naum 1.91,0-1,7. +0.81   7... -0.51
90,Naum 1.91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.49   7... -1.00
91,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,0-1,7. +0.26   7... -0.03
92,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.15   7... -0.32
93,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,1/2-1/2,7. +0.03   7... -0.18
94,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1/2-1/2,7. +0.12   7... -0.02
95,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,1/2-1/2,7. +0.35   7... -0.10
96,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,0-1,7. +0.07   7... -0.39
97,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,1-0,7. +0.52   7... -0.26
98,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,0-1,7. +0.28   7... -0.42
99,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,1/2-1/2,7. +0.75   7... -0.10
100,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.48   7... -0.61
101,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,0-1,7. +0.78   7... -0.43
102,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,0-1,7. +0.51   7... -0.71
103,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,1-0,7. +0.60   7... +0.26
104,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. -0.06   7... -0.22
105,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,0-1,7. +0.18   7... -0.15
106,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.12   7... -0.15
107,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,0-1,7. -0.17   7... -0.10
108,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.10   7... +0.02
109,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,0-1,7. +0.66   7... -0.09
110,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.34   7... -0.41
111,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,0-1,7. +0.04   7... +0.00
112,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,0-1,7. +0.04   7... +0.10
113,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,0-1,7. +0.44   7... -0.43
114,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.50   7... -0.51
115,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,1-0,7. +0.97   7... -0.40
116,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,0-1,7. +0.64   7... -0.70
117,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,1-0,7. +0.27   7... -0.09
118,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.15   7... -0.41
119,The Baron 1.7.1b8,Glaurung_102BH,1/2-1/2,7. +0.81   7... -0.60
120,Glaurung_102BH,The Baron 1.7.1b8,1-0,7. +0.37   7... -1.00



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