Author: Stuart Cracraft
Date: 16:43:43 03/08/06
Go up one level in this thread
On March 08, 2006 at 16:50:25, Geo Disher wrote: >Very Interesting. Rybka finds axb5 as best after 17 hours >New game >r1r1q1k1/6p1/p2b1p1p/1p1PpP2/PPp5/2P4P/R1B2QP1/R5K1 w - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit: > >1.Qb6 Rd8 2.Be4 Be7 3.axb5 Rd6 4.Qa5 Bd8 5.Qa4 a5 > +- (1.57) Depth: 4 00:00:00 >1.Qb6 Rd8 2.Be4 Be7 3.axb5 Rd6 4.Qa5 Bd8 5.Qa4 a5 > +- (1.57) Depth: 4 00:00:00 >1.Qb6 Rd8 2.Be4 Be7 3.axb5 Rd6 4.Qa5 Bd8 5.Qa4 a5 > +- (1.82) Depth: 5 00:00:00 >1.Qb6 Rd8 2.Be4 Be7 3.axb5 Rd6 4.Qa5 Bd8 5.Qa4 a5 > +- (2.06) Depth: 6 00:00:00 5kN >1.Qb6 Rd8 2.Be4 Be7 3.axb5 Rd6 4.Qa5 Bd8 5.Qa4 a5 > +- (1.73) Depth: 7 00:00:00 10kN >1.Qb6 Rd8 2.Be4 Be7 3.axb5 Rd6 4.Qa5 Bd8 5.Qa4 a5 > +- (1.83) Depth: 8 00:00:00 13kN >1.Qb6 Rd8 2.Be4 Be7 3.axb5 Rd6 4.Qa5 Bd8 5.Qa4 a5 > +- (1.73) Depth: 9 00:00:00 17kN >1.Qb6 Rd8 2.Be4 Be7 3.axb5 Rd6 4.Qa5 Bd8 5.Qa4 a5 > +- (1.95) Depth: 10 00:00:00 37kN >1.Qb6 Rd8 2.Be4 Be7 3.axb5 Rd6 4.Qa5 Bd8 5.Qa4 a5 > +- (1.86) Depth: 11 00:00:01 44kN >1.Qb6 Rd8 2.Be4 Be7 3.axb5 Rd6 4.Qa5 Bd8 5.Qa4 a5 > +- (1.77) Depth: 12 00:00:02 116kN >1.Qb6 Rd8 2.Be4 Be7 3.axb5 Rd6 4.Qa5 Bd8 5.Qa4 a5 > +- (1.68) Depth: 13 00:00:03 199kN >1.Qb6 Rd8 2.Be4 Be7 3.axb5 Rd6 4.Qa5 Bd8 5.Qa4 a5 > +- (1.65) Depth: 14 00:00:04 298kN >1.Qb6 Rd8 2.Be4 Be7 3.axb5 Rd6 4.Qa5 Bd8 5.Qa4 a5 > +- (1.63) Depth: 15 00:00:05 450kN >1.Qb6 Qe7 2.axb5 Rab8 3.Qxa6 e4 4.Qa7 Qe5 5.Qe3 Re8 > +- (1.65) Depth: 16 00:00:10 1369kN >1.Qb6 Qe7 2.axb5 Rab8 3.Qxa6 e4 4.Qa7 Qe5 5.Qe3 Re8 > +- (1.65) Depth: 17 00:00:46 5181kN >1.Qb6 Qe7 2.axb5 Rab8 3.Qxa6 e4 4.Qa7 Qe5 5.Qe3 Re8 > +- (1.55) Depth: 18 00:01:54 12780kN >1.Qb6 Qe7 2.axb5 Rab8 3.Qxa6 e4 4.Qa7 Qe5 5.Qe3 Re8 > +- (1.75) Depth: 19 00:03:47 26970kN >1.Qb6 Qe7 2.axb5 Rab8 3.Qxa6 e4 4.Qa7 Qe5 5.Qe3 Re8 > +- (1.70) Depth: 20 00:06:27 46469kN >1.Qb6 Qe7 2.axb5 Rab8 3.Qxa6 e4 4.Qa7 Qe5 5.Qe3 Re8 > +- (1.59) Depth: 21 00:12:58 89868kN >1.Qb6 Qe7 2.axb5 Rab8 3.Qxa6 e4 4.Qa7 Qe5 5.Qe3 Re8 > +- (1.53) Depth: 22 00:32:35 215285kN >1.Qb6 Qe7 2.axb5 Rab8 3.Qxa6 > ± (1.39) Depth: 23 01:11:34 454452kN >1.Qb6 Qe7 2.axb5 > +- (1.52) Depth: 24 02:27:32 937211kN >1.Qb6 Qe7 > ± (1.26) Depth: 25 07:55:22 2876850kN >1.axb5 axb5 > ± (1.28) Depth: 25 17:10:17 2876850kN > >(, 08.03.2006) > > > >On March 03, 2006 at 22:39:47, Lar Mader wrote: > >>Ok, I know this topic has been discussed a lot (beaten to death?!), but I am >>still curious about this move: >> >>Game 2, IBM Kasparov vs. Deep Blue Rematch >>Deep Blue played >> 36.axb5 >> >>I know that the move 37.Be4 is a move that is found by some current chess >>engines. >> >>But this 36.axb5, to my knowledge, is never selected by current chess engines. >> >>I can't duplicate this move on Fritz 9 or Deep Shredder 9. Below I provide the >>analysis of Deep Shredder 9 running for 2 days, and Fritz 9 running for 1 day. >> >>Has anyone been able to duplicate this move with a current chess program? I'm >>especially curious about Rybka, since it seems to find some interesting moves. >> >>Here is the position, full game is below. >> [D]r1r1q1k1/6p1/p2b1p1p/1p1PpP2/PPp5/2P4P/R1B2QP1/R5K1 w - - 0 36 >> >>Here is the link for anyone who wants to read the Deep Blue logs. >> http://www.research.ibm.com/deepblue/watch/html/c.html >> >>These logs, by the way, came out roughly 3 years after Deep Blue was dismantled. >> Hmmmm... am I the only one that thinks that that is perhaps a little odd. So, >>let's see... the project is over, Deep Blue was dismantled immediately, and then >>they just let these logs gather dust for 3 years, while Kasparov ranted and >>raved about them cheating? Then they cough 'em up out of the "blue". Why and >>how would this happen? Conspiracy theorists want to know :) >> >>According to these logs (if I understand them), Deep Blue spent almost 7 minutes >>on this move. They claimed that Deep Blue calculated a peak of 200 million >>nodes/sec, but that realistically it was more like 130 million nodes per second >>on average, or some such. >> >>In 7 minutes (using the 130 mN/s figure), this would be roughly 55 billion nodes >>considered, perhaps. >> >>In the analysis below: >>After 21 hours, Fritz 9 had considered around 74 billion nodes. >>After 47 hours, Deep Shredder 9 had considered 65 billion nodes. >> >>So in principle, both of these engines did at least as much work as Deep Blue, >>on this move. Yes, the trees searched certainly looked much different, but the >>amount of work was comparable, i.e. the speed of deep blue has been taken out of >>the equation. Now it's just a question of search and eval quality. >> >>I have a hard time believing that the position evaluation of Deep Blue was >>better than modern eval functions, and modern search algorithms have improved >>tremendously. >> >>Thus, my point is: I would think that Fritz and Deep Shredder would consider a >>more optimal tree of nodes than Deep Blue, given algorithmic advances, and with >>a better eval function. i.e., for the same amount of work, I would expect a >>better result from Fritz or Shredder than Deep Blue could produce. >> >>But they don't choose axb5. This really seems odd. It's especially odd given >>that Deep Blue's choice of axb5 dovetails nicely with move 37.Be4, which isn't >>typically found easily at this earlier point in the search (from move 36). >> >>By the way, it should be noted that Shredder considered axb5 the 2nd best move, >>and Fritz considered it the 4th best move. >> >>Here is the whole game, and the engine analysis follows below: >> >>[Event "IBM Kasparov vs. Deep Blue Rematch"] >>[Site "New York, NY USA"] >>[Date "1997.05.04"] >>[Round "2"] >>[White "Deep Blue"] >>[Black "Kasparov, Garry"] >>[Opening "Ruy Lopez: closed, Smyslov defense"] >>[ECO "C93"] >>[Result "1-0"] >> >>1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 >>8.c3 O-O 9.h3 h6 10.d4 Re8 11.Nbd2 Bf8 12.Nf1 Bd7 13.Ng3 Na5 14.Bc2 c5 >>15.b3 Nc6 16.d5 Ne7 17.Be3 Ng6 18.Qd2 Nh7 19.a4 Nh4 20.Nxh4 Qxh4 >>21.Qe2 Qd8 22.b4 Qc7 23.Rec1 c4 24.Ra3 Rec8 25.Rca1 Qd8 26.f4 Nf6 >>27.fxe5 dxe5 28.Qf1 Ne8 29.Qf2 Nd6 30.Bb6 Qe8 31.R3a2 Be7 32.Bc5 Bf8 >>33.Nf5 Bxf5 34.exf5 f6 35.Bxd6 Bxd6 36.axb5 axb5 37.Be4 Rxa2 >>38.Qxa2 Qd7 39.Qa7 Rc7 40.Qb6 Rb7 41.Ra8+ Kf7 42.Qa6 Qc7 43.Qc6 Qb6+ >>44.Kf1 Rb8 45.Ra6 1-0 >> >> >>Deep Blue - Kasparov,G, IBM Kasparov vs. Deep Blue Rematch 1997 >>r1r1q1k1/6p1/p2b1p1p/1p1PpP2/PPp5/2P4P/R1B2QP1/R5K1 w - - 0 1 >> >>Analysis by Fritz 9: >> >>36.Qb6 Qd7 37.axb5 Rcb8 38.Qe3 Qxb5 39.Be4 Re8 >> +- (1.46) Depth: 7/18 00:00:00 53kN >>36.Qb6 Qd7 37.axb5 Rcb8 38.Qe3 Bc7 39.Kh2 Bb6 40.Qg3 Qxb5 >> ± (1.36) Depth: 8/20 00:00:00 105kN >>36.Qb6! >> +- (1.64) Depth: 9/22 00:00:00 220kN >>36.Qb6 Bc7 37.Qe6+ Qxe6 38.fxe6 Rcb8 39.Be4 Bd6 40.axb5 Rxb5 41.Kf2 Kf8 >> +- (1.80) Depth: 9/24 00:00:00 369kN >>36.Qb6 Bc7 37.Qe6+ Qxe6 38.fxe6 Rcb8 39.Be4 Bd6 40.axb5 Rxb5 41.Kf2 Kf8 >> +- (1.80) Depth: 10/20 00:00:00 410kN >>36.Qb6 Bc7 37.Qe6+ Qxe6 38.fxe6 Rab8 39.axb5 axb5 40.Ra6 Rd8 41.Be4 Bb6+ 42.Kf1 >>f5 43.e7 >> +- (1.84) Depth: 11/26 00:00:01 745kN >>36.Qb6 Bc7 37.Qe6+ Qxe6 38.fxe6 Rab8 39.axb5 axb5 40.Kf1 Bd6 41.Ke2 Kf8 42.Be4 >>Ke7 43.Ra7+ >> +- (1.68) Depth: 12/33 00:00:03 2289kN >>36.Qb6 Bc7 37.Qe6+ Qxe6 38.fxe6 Rab8 39.Kf1 Kf8 40.axb5 axb5 41.Ra7 Rb6 42.Be4 >>Rd6 43.Ke2 >> +- (1.73) Depth: 13/31 00:00:06 5781kN >>36.Qb6 Bc7 37.Qe6+ Qxe6 38.fxe6 Rab8 39.Kf1 Kf8 40.axb5 axb5 41.Be4 Bd6 42.Ke2 >>Ke7 43.g3 Rc7 44.Ke3 >> +- (1.71) Depth: 14/33 00:00:16 14624kN >>36.Qb6! >> +- (2.00) Depth: 15/40 00:00:37 35526kN >>36.Qb6 Rd8 37.Be4 Kh7 38.Qc6 Qxc6 39.dxc6 Rab8 40.axb5 axb5 41.Ra7 Rdc8 42.Kf2 >>Bc7 43.Kf3 Kg8 >> +- (1.81) Depth: 16/39 00:01:15 70739kN >>36.Qb6-- >> +- (1.53) Depth: 17/41 00:02:48 159264kN >>36.Qb6 Rd8 37.Be4 >> +- (1.53) Depth: 17/41 00:03:01 172179kN >>36.Qb6-- >> ± (1.25) Depth: 18/55 00:11:33 662396kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qxa6 e4 39.Qa7 Bc7 40.Ra6 Bb6+ 41.Rxb6 >> ± (1.24) Depth: 18/58 00:13:25 772277kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qxa6 e4 39.Qa7 Qe5 40.Qe3 Re8 41.b6 Qh2+ 42.Kf1 Bf4 >>43.Qg1 Qg3 44.Qf2 Qh2 >> ± (1.26) Depth: 19/46 00:24:46 1428950kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qf2 axb5 39.Be4 Qd8 40.Kh2 Ra8 >> ± (1.03) Depth: 20/52 00:41:03 2373942kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qf2 axb5 39.Be4 Qd8 40.Kh2 Ra8 41.Ra7 Rxa7 42.Qxa7 >>Rc7 43.Qe3 >> ± (1.04) Depth: 21/52 01:57:43 6836329kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qf2 axb5 39.Be4 Qd8 40.Kh2 Ra8 41.Ra7 Rxa7 42.Qxa7 >>Rc7 43.Qe3 >> ± (1.04) Depth: 22/53 03:45:33 13112880kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qf2 axb5 39.Be4 Qd8 40.Kh2 Ra8 41.Ra7 Rxa7 42.Qxa7 >>Rb8 43.Ra6 Bf8 >> ± (1.04) Depth: 23/83 07:40:14 26775814kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qf2 axb5 39.Be4 Qd8 40.Kh2 Ra8 >> ± (1.04) Depth: 24/80 21:12:21 74891917kN >> >>(Mader, 01.03.2006) >> >> >> >>Deep Blue - Kasparov,G, IBM Kasparov vs. Deep Blue Rematch 1997 >>r1r1q1k1/6p1/p2b1p1p/1p1PpP2/PPp5/2P4P/R1B2QP1/R5K1 w - - 0 1 >> >>Analysis by Deep Shredder 9: >> >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 18kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 18kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 18kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 10/14 00:00:00 52kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 11/17 00:00:00 108kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 12/12 00:00:00 225kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 13/13 00:00:01 453kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 14/14 00:00:01 847kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 15/16 00:00:03 1552kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 16/17 00:00:07 3106kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 17/27 00:00:10 4952kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 18/18 00:00:19 9111kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 19/24 00:00:32 15072kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 20/20 00:01:03 29392kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 21/28 00:01:49 51096kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.39) Depth: 22/52 00:10:15 269665kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (1.39) Depth: 22/52 00:16:24 418189kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qxa6 e4 39.Bxe4 Re8 40.Kf1 Qe5 41.Bf3 Rbd8 42.Ra3 >>Qxf5 43.Qa7 Qf4 >> ± (1.35) Depth: 23/59 00:29:57 753619kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qxa6 e4 39.Qa7 Qe5 40.Qe3 Re8 41.b6 Qxf5 42.Ba4 Re7 >>43.Bc6 Qe5 44.Ra7 Qh2+ 45.Kf1 f5 46.Rxe7 >> ± (1.17) Depth: 24/57 01:07:17 1661960kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qxa6 e4 39.Qa7 Qe5 40.Qe3 Re8 41.b6 Qxf5 42.Rd1 Qe5 >>43.Ba4 Qh2+ 44.Kf1 Re7 45.Bb5 f5 46.Bxc4 >> ± (0.95) Depth: 25/59 02:20:12 3428674kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qxa6 e4 39.Qa7 Qe5 40.Qe3 Re8 41.b6 Qxf5 42.Rd1 Qe5 >>43.Ba4 Qh2+ 44.Kf1 Re7 45.Bb5 f5 46.Bxc4 >> ± (1.14) Depth: 26/61 04:16:25 6241570kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qxa6 e4 39.Qa7 Qe5 40.Qe3 Re8 41.b6 Qxf5 42.Ba4 Re7 >>43.Bc6 Qe5 44.Ra8 f5 45.Rxb8+ Bxb8 46.Ra8 Rf7 >> ± (1.00) Depth: 27/61 07:07:21 10324389kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qxa6 e4 39.Qa7 Qe5 40.Qe3 Re8 41.b6 Qh2+ 42.Kf1 Bf4 >>43.Qg1 Qg3 44.Qf2 Qh2 45.Ke2 e3 46.Qf3 Be5 47.Ra3 Rxb6 >> ± (1.04) Depth: 28/64 12:29:26 17947658kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 >> ± (0.79) Depth: 29/67 21:34:29 30468028kN >>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qe3 axb5 39.Ra6 Qd8 >> ² (0.52) Depth: 29/70 47:05:07 65855136kN >> >>(Mader, 03.03.2006) I think Hyatt made a prediction for the approximate time when modern chess programs would finally be at the speed that Deep Bluer was back in 1997. We are not there yet. Too bad Kasparov's liaison was such a dolt to Crazy Bird during rematch proposal else we might have had a rematch with a coke can beating Garik as Crazy Bird described in his book. Talk about a sugar headache! Stuart
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