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Subject: Re: ELO Rating of DB jr. @120M NPS ??? (look out Garry K)

Author: Andrew Dados

Date: 11:08:44 05/15/99

Go up one level in this thread



On May 14, 1999 at 19:14:58, James Robertson wrote:

>On May 14, 1999 at 15:09:35, KarinsDad wrote:
>
>>On May 14, 1999 at 14:25:05, J. Wesley Cleveland wrote:
>>
>>>On May 14, 1999 at 13:14:36, KarinsDad wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>You seem to misunderstand alpha-beta. Alpha-beta *always* finds the same "best"
>>>move as exhaustive search does at any depth. What it does not tell you is how
>>>much better the "best" move is.
>>
>>Alpha Beta finds the best move "under the same depth and constraints", but does
>>not find the best move. That is why chess programs are not perfect at this point
>>in development (since they are restricted from performing exhaustive searches).
>>
>>If after a quiescence alpha beta search, you determine that you have lost a
>>knight for a pawn, most programs do not search much beyond that to find the
>>forced checkmate 4 moves later and hence do not find the sacrifice. The GM, on
>>the other hand, may find this.
>>
>>What this effectively means is that the alpha beta routines "prune" out lines
>>which do not look promising, but in actuality are very promising.
>>
>>For example, let's take the opening. 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3
>>
>>Most alpha beta programs would prune out the move c4 at ply 3 since there
>>appears (via the evaluation routine) for there to be a lot of other moves at
>>that point which develop pieces and are stronger. This does not mean that a
>>program may not find this on a re-search or something, however, you have to get
>>to ply 11 or so to start to appreciate the advantages of c4 and you will never
>>get there with a standard alpha beta search. This is the MAIN reason that
>>programs without opening books are so weak. The GMs have spent years analyzing
>>to some depth various openings and have found moves such as 2. c4 which are
>>strong, but a program would not find these moves in any reasonable amount of
>>time since it prunes via alpha beta.
>>
>>So, in the example of exhaustive 6 ply search, there are many lines dropped via
>>alpha beta at ply 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 so that the evaluation routine does not even
>>get to compare those nodes at ply 6. If a line is dropped at ply 4, how can you
>>evaluate it's grandchildren at ply 6 or ply 9 or ply 12 and find that it is in
>>fact actually stronger, not weaker?
>>
>>Do you still think that I do not understand Alpha Beta? Min Max and Alpha Beta
>>are the reasons that other techniques such as null move and razoring, etc. have
>>been developed. If we were doing exhaustive search to ply 14 and alpha beta
>>search to ply 20 after that, no human in the world could beat the program and
>>these other techniques would not be needed.

Doh.. what is the difference between 'alpha-beta' and 'exhaustive search' in the
above?
alpha-beta *itself* does not 'prune' anything before getting to q-search...
 Andrew-
>>
>>KarinsDad :)
>
>Alpha-beta produces EXACTLY the same move as mini-max (at least according to the
>programmers of Ostrich; I read it in their book).
>
>James



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