Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 18:01:54 06/21/99
Go up one level in this thread
On June 21, 1999 at 14:23:28, James Robertson wrote: >On June 21, 1999 at 13:58:32, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On June 21, 1999 at 12:44:25, Paul Richards wrote: >> >>>On June 21, 1999 at 09:29:53, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>1. Pick any of the 5 programs that played the GM players. I will find a >>>>game where they played so badly that if you look at _that_ game no one would >>>>consider that program to be a GM. For example, take the winner and look at >>>>the playoff game. Three different GM players commented that they had _never_ >>>>seen white screw up the opening so badly... >>> >>>True, but GMs make terrible blunders too. The difference is that the >>>program will make the same sort of blunder until you fix it. >>> >> >> >>You missed my point... tactical blunders are not uncommon. But this game >>was _not_ a blunderful game... It was just positional mistake on top of >>positional mistake... IE no one move led to that position around move 25, >>it took _several_... >> >> >> >>> >>>>3. I've been working on chess programming for a long time. And regardless of >>>>how they 'seem' to play in many games, I still know just what they can and can't >>>>do. And they are nowhere near a GM's level in 'knowledge'. They are still >>>>surviving on tactics. And there are plenty of GM players that know how to >>>>squelch tactics and make the game hinge on positional play. And there the >>>>programs simply don't measure up. >>> >>>True, but the only real measure of strength is in the result. The relative >>>strength of a human GM is knowledge, the strength of the computer is >>>tactics. You posted a quote from a GM observing a game who admitted that >>>in complex tactical positions Crafty was much stronger than he was. In >>>other words it's common knowledge what the relative strengths and >>>weaknesses of the two species are. They are two different animals with >>>a different approach to the game. But just as we don't dismiss human >>>GMs for making tactical blunders, we can't say programs are "weak" >>>because of their lesser knowledge. Sometimes DB played like a non-GM, >>>other times it clearly out-thought Kasparov. So what? He lost. The >>>sum of DB's strengths minus its weaknesses was greater than Kasparov's >>>total for the match. What matters where ratings and titles are concerned >>>is the final result. >> >> >>Note that computers are better _in some types of tactics_. But there are >>positions where a computer has no chance. IE Shirov's Bh3 sac. It is not >>impossible to solve with the right extensions, but no one does yet (perhaps >>excepting DB as I haven't asked Hsu if he has tried it). But there are >>still _plenty_ of places where a human GM can tactically blow away a computer, >>because in some cases, the tactics occur after a 30 ply forcing line that the >>GM can follow but the computer can't... >> >>IE computers are tactically strong, but not invincible. Crafty still loses >>blitz games to GM players. Not real often, but enough to see where it has >>tactical problems even at 1M nodes per second... >> >> >> >> >>> >>>>5. GM players exhibit a consistency in quality that computers don't. A >>>>computer will play like a GM for 5 games, and like a beginner for 1. What >>>>happens when the GM players learn what the computer can't do and then >>>>exploit that game after game?. >>> >>>The consistency issue is debatable. GMs play well until they make their >>>next blunder. Computers are obviously completely consistent, it's just >>>that their weaknesses are only exposed when certain positions crop up, so >>>it has the appearance of a sporadic phenomenon. But if a computer plays >>>like a GM a good percentage of the time, it's a GM. Once a human earns >>>a GM title, it can't be taken away, so you don't have to have a great >>>performance every game or every tournament. Once you earn that title >>>with a few good performances it's yours, so by that measure I think the >>>programs would have easily earned their titles by now. >> >> >> >>Computers are not consistent at all... From something I have told before: >>Before Jakarta, Roman was playing lots of games vs Crafty to help me tun it. >>One day he called and started on the 'bad bishop' thing once again.... and >>said that he had found it serious enough that he was able to make it screw up >>fairly frequently. A week later he called back and said "much better... it >>is not hemming in its own bishop any longer... good work." I didn't have the >>heart to tell him I had made no changes as this was only 2 weeks prior to >>the tournament. :) >> >>IE it looks like a genius in some games, like an idiot in others. As do all >>programs... A computer might play like this over 8 games: 2500 2500 2500 2500 >>1800 2600 2500 2400. A GM won't have that 1800 game. > >Sokolov just did. :) > >James Not quite. He did a single 1800 _move_. Big difference from an 1800 _game_ if you know what I mean...
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