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Subject: Re: WCCC and some NPS observations

Author: Dave Gomboc

Date: 09:38:51 06/23/99

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On June 23, 1999 at 11:19:23, Thorsten Czub wrote:

>On June 23, 1999 at 09:56:54, Dave Gomboc wrote:
>
>>Fritz finished in 3rd place.  This was a highly competitive field, and 3rd place
>>is IMO an excellent result.
>
>when  you start with 4 programs, ONE program has to be in a good place.
>just randomnly, isn't it. if they would have started with 10 programs,
>the chances would have been even higher. but this has nothing to do with
>chess, or ?
>its just trying to make the best out of a mess.

The engine authors are independent.  Frans Morsch did not have four programs in
the tournament.  Your claims are nothing but FUD.

>>I didn't see CSTal there.  Excuses about a $500 entry fee notwithstanding, I can
>
>Right. Chris sees no reason to finance the icca although they like to ban him
>and me.

There was no ban on the participation of CSTal.  For your own sake, try not to
stretch the truth beyond what is remotely believeable: your credibility goes
downhill fast.

>>only presume that if it had been there, it would have been crushed by programs
>>like Fritz.
>
>really ? my autoplayer says different. i have no such problems on my 400 Mhz
>machines.

You are not an independent tester.  While I respect your understanding of how
the program plays, you are not at arms length from the product.  It would be a
serious error in judgement to blindly believe your claims regarding its strength
against computer opposition.

It would be extremely revealing to see what SSDF testing would indicate about
the results for CSTal II vs other programs.  Why don't you ask Chris to change
the terms of the license to allow SSDF to publish test results?

>How do you know ? Also cstal is transformed into new-code , so chris and his
>programmers have to program it completely new from the scratch, all the
>code has to been transformed into bit-board code.
>we cannot participate with a program that is not THERE. cstal is not existing.
>it is not yet completely transformed in the new code.

That's nice, but there have been not one, but _two_ commercially released
versions that could be rated by the SSDF if the license allowed it.  Presumably
the first is not of interest anymore (nobody's old versions are of interest :-)
but since CSTal II has autoplayer capability, it would be possible for the SSDF
to establish a rating for it pretty quickly (if they haven't already done so and
are just not publishing it for legal reasons.)

>If you know better about CSTal than me and Chris, you seem to know better
>than the developers. :-)))

What I know is that I'll be more interested in CSTal when I see more results
than excuses.  Chris has, I think, had some limited success, and I do hope that
CSTal improves further.  This hope is independent from the fact that much of
what you have posted in the past is worthy of a sustained CSTal marketing
campaign, but isn't as rooted in reality as you apparently believe.

>I see that is does not stop you from spreading wrong and nasty rumors.
>Whatever your intention is, you are wrong.

What wrong and nasty rumours did I spread in the post you replied to?  You're
FUDding again.  My intention?  When I see something I think is good, I say so,
and when I see something I think is crap, I say so.  None of my life depends on
how well CSTal performs: I don't have a vested interest in seeing it win or
lose.  Your comments about Fritz and intelligent play are over the top when
combined with your "associate's" ;-) no-show.

>>Of course, we all know how intelligent that would have made CSTal
>>look.
>
>there is no way to let fritz look more intelligent than cstal. no way.

Watch it smash CSTal a few times: Fritz will look pretty good.

>and anybody knows this, who has bought both programs.
>you try to turn this ? How ?
>400.000 times nothing is still nothing.
>6000 times something is always more than nothing.
>
>>Dave
>
>If you know more instead of "hear said", i mean , facts ! about computerchess,
>games, source-code or whatever, than discuss. but if you know nothing,
>don't try to confuse people.

If I knew nothing, I would have kept my mouth shut.

Dave



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