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Subject: Re: Yes, Hiarcs 6 is Dumb.

Author: James Robertson

Date: 17:30:25 06/26/99

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On June 26, 1999 at 17:38:38, Mark Young wrote:

>On June 26, 1999 at 17:11:19, James Robertson wrote:
>
>>On June 26, 1999 at 14:15:11, Mark Young wrote:
>>
>>>If we are going to make the conclusion here in CCC, as goes Hiarcs6 in this
>>>match so goes all chess programs. I would like to make a suggestion. Don't let
>>>Hiarcs 6 repersent the other chess programs in this match. Hiarcs 6 as I have
>>>posted in the past is one of the worst programs at faster time controls.
>>
>>Faster time controls...??? I really can't help but laugh. Weren't we just a
>>little while ago saying there isn't much difference between G/60 and 40/2?
>
>No.

Actually, it did come up when Polgar lost to Fritz at what we thought was G/60.
But, you probably didn't say anything about it, and I shouldn't attribute
motives to you with out checking; I'm sorry for doing so. The sarcastic tone of
my last post was not called for.

Aside from that though, it is unusual to hear someone say that a program is
weaker against humans at shorter time controls. What I mean is, if Hiarcs is one
of the worst at G/60 (what you actually said), and it rates very high in the
SSDF at 40/2, then it is obviously to the humans advantage to play it at a
shorter time control. This is backwards from what is usually believed....

>
> It
>>seems unlikely that doubling the time control will raise Hiarcs' rating 300-500
>>points.
>
>Are you saying Hiarcs 6 is not even of master strenght. I look at programs as
>individuals. And like any individual they play at different strenghts at
>different time controls. That is why I test programs at many time controls
>ranging for blitz to standard time controls. Because I test this way I know that
>hiarcs 6 at this time controls is very weak at this time control against  this
>type of tactic play. There are much better programs that can deal with this type
>of play at this time controls on halls slower computer.

I see your point, but I just cannot believe that a program would be tactically
inept to this kind of play "at this time control", and if you double the time
control, giving it approx. .2 - .5 extra plies it would be tactically able to
handle this.

>
>>
>>>It is
>>>very slow in seeing danger and will ofter make itself look dumb.
>>
>>I do agree there.... but Fritz on a P400 couldn't see the danger either, so I
>>don't think Hiarcs is the exception in not seeing the danger.
>
>Don't know about Fritz, but Hiarcs 7.32 would have done better, as seen for the
>move it would have played.

But is it because it sees the tactics or just the positional dangers? I will
wager Hiarcs 7.32's score will not drop to -4 or -9 after Nxc2 (I presume that
is the move you are talking about?).


>
>>
>>>
>>>On the computer system that Hall is running, I would suggest using Chess Genius
>>>5. Genius 5 is one of the best if not the best program playing humans at this
>>>time control, and the program is of the same generation as Hiarcs 6.
>>
>>Do you really think Chess Genius is 300-500 points stronger than Hiarcs against
>>Humans?
>
>Yes, if you think that best programs are only rated 2000 because of Hiarcs 6
>weakness.
>
>>
>>>
>>>As I have posted in the past I played a match some time ago with GM A Ivanov. I
>>>used genius 5 running on a Cyrix P 166. The time control for the match was 30
>>>mins plus 30 secs a move. Genius 5 won with ease and GM A Ivanov quit the match.
>>
>>I did not hear about this; could you post the games, date, and other
>>information?
>>
>>Also, this is unrelated to the post, but weren't you the one who set up the
>>Yermo - Hiarcs match? I will have to go back through the archives, as my memory
>>is really failing me here.... :(
>
>No it was not me, When I play a match with a GM I wait until the games have
>started before saying anything.

My mistake, sorry. I got confused. :(

James

>
>>
>>James



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