Author: Terry Ripple
Date: 23:45:08 08/19/99
Go up one level in this thread
On August 19, 1999 at 14:46:24, Laurence Chen wrote:
>Hi Terry,
> After much thought and reading of all previous posting about "bad" opening
>book lines, it made me realize why such lines exists at all in the chess engine
>book. I believe the problem lies with the user expectations versus the
>programmers expectations of how the chess engine would be used. A lot of us are
>not professional chess players who plays chess for a living, and our time to
>study chess is very limited. Consider this, if you were to sit down and play
>your chess engine, and the chess engine played a bad line would you be able to
>refute it. I believe most of us would not be able to refute the bad line even if
>our booked up opponent played an inferior line against us in an OTB game. So the
>inferior lines in the chess opening book in the engine was designed against
>human players not against computers. That's why one should design an opening
>book for chess engines which play against other chess engines. They are a
>different type of beast. Instead of complaining how bad the chess engine opening
>book is, just remember that it was designed with the human player in mind, and
>if the chess engine played only good lines then how would you, a human player,
>learn opening theory. Would you know why such and such line is bad if the chess
>engine never played? Remember that most chess engines, Fritz 5.32/5.16, Junior
>5, Hiarcs 7.32, Hiarcs 7, MChess 8, and so on, have learning capabilities, and
>will learn from the loses and eventually avoid playing these losing lines once
>enough games have been played. As a human player I would like that the chess
>engine to play some inferior lines so that I can beat the chess beast once in a
>while for a change.... So be happy and don't worry about inferior lines. :)
>Laurence
>
>On August 18, 1999 at 17:48:32, Terry Ripple wrote:
>
>> This is one "Huge" Opening mistake and i here that there are more in Hiarcs7.32
>>opening book! So what does one do? Maybe the Power Books 99 is a solution but it
>>states that it will weaken your program somewhat over the long run because
>>it will have many opening lines not suited for chess programs because of lines
>>that lead to closed positions that need long term planning that programs
>>aren't good at doing, but it got to be better than losing lines already in the
>>book of Hiarcs, don't you think? If we only knew how many lines in Hiarcs book
>>were at fault because it might not matter if only a few were bad and we were
>>told which ones to deleat out.
>> Any other opening books that would be worth a try?
>>
>>Thankyou for any information,
>>Terry
>>
>>PS. Here is the game, the first move out of book at move #21. Nb6+ (-5.81/14)
>>
>>Event "60'/30+0'/0+30'/Game"]
>>[Site "?"]
>>[Date "1999.07.21"]
>>[Round "7"]
>>[White "Hiarcs 7.32"]
>>[Black "Comet B02"]
>>[Result "0-1"]
>>[ECO "C56"]
>>[PlyCount "50"]
>>
>>{W=13.8 ply, B=10.8ply} 1. e4 {0} 1... e5 {0} 2. Nf3 {0} 2... Nc6 {0} 3. d4 {0}
>>3... exd4 {0} 4. Bc4 {0} 4... Nf6 {0} 5. O-O {0} 5... Nxe4 {0} 6. Re1 {0} 6...
>>d5 {0} 7. Bxd5 {0} 7... Qxd5 {0} 8. Nc3 {0} 8... Qa5 {0} 9. Nxe4 {0} 9... Be6 {
>>0} 10. Bd2 {0} 10... Bb4 {0} 11. Bxb4 {0} 11... Qxb4 {0} 12. Neg5 {0} 12...
>>O-O-O {0} 13. Nxe6 {0} 13... fxe6 {0} 14. Ng5 {0} 14... Rd7 {0} 15. Nxe6 {0}
>>15... Re8 {0} 16. Qg4 {0} 16... d3 {0} 17. Qxb4 {0} 17... Nxb4 {0} 18. Nc5 {0}
>>18... Rxe1+ {0} 19. Rxe1 {0} 19... dxc2 {0} 20. Nxd7 {0} 20... Nd3 {
>>Both last book move 0} 21. Nb6+ {-5.81/14 418} 21... axb6 {-5.14/14 470} 22.
>>Rf1 {(Ra1) -5.81/14 219} 22... c5 {(c1Q) -5.22/13 296} 23. a4 {
>>(f3) -6.26/14 586} 23... c1=R {(c1Q) -5.39/11 27} 24. Rxc1 {-6.51/14 1358}
>>24... Nxc1 {-5.39/9 1} 25. Kf1 {-6.51/13 209} 25... Kd7 {-5.57/10 34} 0-1
Hi Laurence,
I get enough practice in our club from players who don't know the correct
lines in an opening. I know the program can beat me and the main reason i
purchased a strong program was to practice playing my endgames and also to see
how deep into my favorite opening lines i can go without a mistake, plus to use
the database of games for organization of my favorite openings etc.
Thanks for your input,
Regards,Terry
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