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Subject: Re: LCT-II Fin8

Author: Howard Exner

Date: 17:34:19 08/29/99

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On August 29, 1999 at 09:01:44, Mark Rawlings wrote:

>On August 28, 1999 at 19:55:25, Howard Exner wrote:
>
>>On August 28, 1999 at 11:07:45, Mark Rawlings wrote:
>>
>>>On August 28, 1999 at 09:36:58, Howard Exner wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 27, 1999 at 13:57:54, Mark Rawlings wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I let Crafty with 3+2 tablebases chew on this one overnight after the moves c5
>>>>>bxc5.  After 25 ply, the eval was still +1.07 (Be1 Kc7 Ba5+ Kb8...)  This one is
>>>>>really deep!
>>>>>
>>>>>Mark
>>>>
>>>>What line of play is Crafty producing?
>>>
>>>Here's the Crafty output:
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>               25   463:44   1.07   2. Be1 Kc7 3. Ba5+ Kb8 4. Ke3 Bd4+
>>>                                    5. Ke2 Bf6 6. Kd3 Bb2 7. Kd2 Bf6 8.Ke3 <HT>
>>
>>How does Crafty play these lines as black?
>>I've always wanted to fiqure this position out and now with the
>>thre of us maybe we can do it.
>>
>>A.1. c5 bxc5 2. Be1 Kb8 3. Ba5 Kc8 4. b6 axb6 5. Bxb6 Kb8 6. Kc4 Bd4 7. Bd8
>>Be3 8. Bxh4 Bxf4 9. Bf6 Bg3 10. h4 f4 11. Kd3 f3 12. Ke3 f2 13. Ke2 Ka7
>>14. h5 Bf4 15. Bg7 Kxa6 16. Kxf2 Kb5 17. Kf3 Bg5 18. h6
>>
>>B.1. c5 bxc5 2. Be1 Kb8 3. Ba5 Kc8 4. b6 axb6 5. Bxb6 Kb8 6. Kc4 Kc8 7. Kb5
>>Kb8 8. Kc6 Be7 9. Kd7 Bf8 10. Ke6
>
>After 3. Ba5 crafty has the following:
>
>               19->   4:06  -1.22   3. ... Bb2 4. Bd8 Bc1 5. Bxh4 Bxf4
>                                    6. Be1 Ka8 7. h4 Kb8 8. h5 Bh6 9. Bd2
>                                    f4 10. Ke4 f3 11. Be3 f2 12. Bxf2 Kc7
>                                    13. Be3
>               20     8:06  -1.18   3. ... Bb2 4. Bd8 Bc1 5. Bxh4 Bxf4
>                                    6. Be1 Bh6 7. h4 Kc7 8. Ba5+ Kc8 9.
>                                    b6 axb6 10. Bxb6 Kb8 11. h5 f4 12.
>                                    Ke4 Kc8 13. Kf3 c4 14. a7 Kb7
>               20->  15:37  -1.18   3. ... Bb2 4. Bd8 Bc1 5. Bxh4 Bxf4
>                                    6. Be1 Bh6 7. h4 Kc7 8. Ba5+ Kc8 9.
>                                    b6 axb6 10. Bxb6 Kb8 11. h5 f4 12.
>                                    Ke4 Kc8 13. Kf3 c4 14. a7 Kb7
>               21    28:26  -1.34   3. ... Bb2 4. Bd8 Bc1 5. Bxh4 Bxf4
>                                    6. Be7 Be5 7. h4 Kc7 8. h5 Bf4 9. Bf6
>                                    Kb6 10. Kc4 <HT>

Instead of 6. Be7 input Be1. This looks harder to refute because it can
keep the black king out of b6 (If Kc7 then Ba5+). Also the h pawn moves
forward while it appears that black's c and f pawns are halted. For now I
see npo way out for black.

>
>No sure thing yet for white.  After 10. Ke6 in your line B.1. above, it looks
>like a win for white:
>
>              16->  43.96  -3.28   8. ... Ka8 9. Kxf5 Bh6 10. Kg4 Bg7
>                                    11. Kh5 c4 12. Kg6 Bf8 13. f5 c3 14.
>                                    Bd4 c2 15. Be3 <HT>
>               17     1:13  -3.56   8. ... Ka8 9. Kxf5 Bh6 10. Kg4 c4 11.
>                                    Be3 c3 12. Kh5 Bf8 13. Kg6 Be7 14.
>                                    f5 Bd8 15. f6 Kb8 16. f7 <HT>
>               17->   1:52  -3.56   8. ... Ka8 9. Kxf5 Bh6 10. Kg4 c4 11.
>                                    Be3 c3 12. Kh5 Bf8 13. Kg6 Be7 14.
>                                    f5 Bd8 15. f6 Kb8 16. f7 <HT>
>               18     2:04     --   8. ... Ka8
>               18     4:31  -6.45   8. ... Ka8 9. Kxf5 c4 10. Kg6 c3 11.
>                                    f5 c2 12. Be3 Be7 13. f6 Bd8 14. Kg7
>                                    Kb8 15. f7 Be7 16. f8=Q+ Bxf8+ 17.
>                                    Kxf8 <HT>
>
>
>I'll try to find the web site with the solutions to these.  Maybe it has the
>winning line.  (If not, it probably isn't a very good problem for a test suite!)

It's definately a difficult problem for computers. The intent of the problem
could have been the initial position where most machines would just aimlessly
wander about behind the pawn wall. I human would quickly realize that the only
chance of a win is the break, c5. Whether that really wins remains but I
think that we will eventually resolve this one.
>
>Mark



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