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Subject: Re: two simple endings, too hard for computers?

Author: Gerrit Reubold

Date: 09:18:41 08/31/99

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On August 31, 1999 at 10:19:35, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On August 31, 1999 at 10:02:19, Gerrit Reubold wrote:
>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>Here are two endgame positions which are easy draws (for humans), however, my
>>program (Bringer) lost both. Does your programs play better moves? how long do
>>they take to see the draw?
>>
>>Position from Bringer 1.4 - Crafty 16.11, after 155. ... Bb5
>>
>>8/8/2k5/1bp5/4p2p/2K1P2P/4B1P1/8 w - - 0 1
>>
>>How long does your program take to avoid the losing 156. Bc4?? Instead,
>>sacrificing the g2 pawn with Bg4 and keeping the king on c3 should be an easy
>>draw. (Bringer would need 6 min on a PII 300 to avoid Bc4 :-( )
>>
>>
>
>
>Crafty seens that Bc4 loses in about 30 seconds on my PII/300 notebook,
>after getting to depth=18.  Score goes from -1.58 to -5.21 at that depth.
>The quad xeon sees this in 4 seconds however...

Sure, searching faster an deeper helps. I hoped for an answer like "Do this ...
and that ..., and your engine will see it immediately". Maybe I have to accept
that there are still positions which humans solve easily and progs need some 18
plies.

>
>
>
>
>>Position from Crafty 16.11 - Bringer 1.4
>>
>> - - 0 1
>>
>>43. ... g5 would be an easy draw, does any program see this move (BTW, Bringer
>>played Kg6 and h5 and lost)
>>
>
>
>I'll have to try this one on the xeon, but it is busy.  It has all the 3 vs 2
>endings and may be able to search this to the end.
>>
>>The second position leads to the question: how should we evaluate positions like
>>this:
>>8/2k5/2n5/8/8/2BN4/2K5/8 w - - 0 1
>>Don't tell me "5 pieces EGTBs", because there may be another black pawn, which
>>wouldn't change a thing.
>>
>>
>>Greetings,
>>Gerrit
>
>
>Tablebases _will_ help... because often a 20 ply search is more than enough
>to find a way to eliminate that last pawn and get an exact score...  otherwise
>such evaluations are difficult, because _all_ KN vs KBN positions are not
>drawn...

I was looking for a way to *know* it is a draw, not for searching 20 plies to
hit the tablebases. Of course, no one would lose that third position, but
knowing its score would help when reaching that position at a leaf node in a 20
ply search.

Greetings,
Gerrit



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