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Subject: Re: Hiarcs and pawns revisited

Author: Ricardo Gibert

Date: 06:48:15 09/01/99

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On August 31, 1999 at 22:01:49, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On August 31, 1999 at 15:47:54, Ricardo Gibert wrote:
>
>>You've missed the point. You're focusing to much on the specific examples and
>>missing the generalization. Everybody realizes more than one bishop of the same
>>color is rare. That is a feature the is incidental to my point. I used these
>>examples to save myself work of producing less trivial examples. Do you really
>>believe there do not exist analogous examples that are more practical bent? You
>>focus on the tree and overlook the forest!
>>
>
>Personally, I like trees better.  :)
>
>But in any case, the bishop + RP is a special case that I handle.  There
>are many others.  My approach has been to fix the special cases that hurt,
>and ignore the ones that don't...  IE I saw crafty get tricked into many
>RP + wrong bishop endings.  Now I don't get tricked.
>
>And btw, I saw genius vs crafty yesterday, where genius out of the
>clear blue sacrificed a bishop leaving crafty with a bishop + wrong
>rook pawn.  Unfortunately for genius, crafty announced a mate in 26.
>Because it was _not_ a draw.  That is what being too 'general' will get
>for you...  I don't call 'em a draw unless I am _sure_ they are draws.
>And I don't lose games in this insane say.  :)

Yes, that was being too general, but the point of my post was not about "same
color bishops". I was pointing out 2 things:
1) "Advantages" are not additive. Sometimes they an advantage is meaningless
even when it is a whole piece.
2) An eval of highly similar positions can produce wildly different results. In
the 1st & 3rd case, a 2nd bishop of the same color makes no difference, but in
the 2nd case gave an easy win.

The examples were meant as an illustration of what I believe is common.
Determining whether an "advantage" is significant is part of the reason for
performing a search, but it may take too long and a program will miss what is
very obvious to a human using a non-search non-heuristic method, i.e. logic
(actually a diferent kind of search).

>
>But for every special case I see, I fix.  IE Crafty _NEVER_ gets burned
>by playing Bxa7 and letting black play b6 trapping the bishop.  And I can't
>count the number of games it has won by using this code to not protect that RP
>knowing that the opponent won't take it.  And when they do...
>
>So special cases are not bad, because I don't believe there are an infinite
>number of those that are significant.  And for every one that is found and
>included, that is one less way to screw up...
>
>One of the most common examples is _always_ two bishops of the same color.
>Which is interesting.  But which will never happen in a real game.  So it is
>interesting from a theoretical point of view, but not from a practical one.
>And I'm more interested in solving practical issues that hurt crafty or help
>crafty in real games...



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