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Subject: Re: Hiarcs 7.32 vs CSTal-2 **No joke-2games**

Author: Ed Schröder

Date: 10:42:52 09/19/99

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>>It's not so simple, consider a few points...
>>
>>#1. Instead of the move send weird stuff to the other PC as a result
>>the other PC will crash. Do that in case your score is below -1.xx.
>>Don't do it in every game.
>
>You and I checked several programs with CB and Donninger's auto232, and no
>program sent anything weird.
>
>>#2. Let your own program crash when you are down in score. Don't do
>>it every game.
>
>This can be "achieved" also manually, and it has happened twice in the few
>thousand games I autoplayed.
>
>>#3. Send the "move now" command to the other PC after say 10 seconds
>>in a 60/60 or 40/120 game. Hide it a little, nobody will notice.
>
>This can be "achieved" also manually, and it has happened twice in the few
>thousand games I autoplayed.

These days crashes are rare I agree but I consider a time-out also as a
crash and I have seen too many of suspect time-out cases and they by
definition always favor the Rebel opponent. I checked the time-out parameter
and that can't be the reason. Similar games (behavior) seen?

>>I have not the impression it currently happens but is all possible
>>if a programmer wants so.
>>
>>About books...
>>
>>You can easily recognize when the opponent is out of book simply by
>>checking the opponent response time. With this information you can
>>recognize the opponent. Think about this for a while. I have tried
>>it for my own curiosity and it simply works. Now you can do nice
>>things in case you know the opponent. Is it happening already? I
>>don't know but it can be done and quite easily.
>
>I wonder if this is so easy (the 2 versions I tried didn't make reliable
>identifications at all), and even if a program can identify the opponent
>one can easily argue that:

Read again. I am not talking about first versions I once send you but
a system based on the moment when a program is out of book which
you can easily measure  by the (long cq direct) response time of the
opponent. You can identify the opponent based on that information.
It's a piece of cake if you think about it for a few moments.

>- it would be an intelligent development in the "artificial intelligence"
>field.
>
>- all programmers could do it, so what's the problem?

The problem (book-learning alike) is that it hides the real strength of a
chess engine. These days it's not about the engine but more about
the extra elo you can gain by smart (and aggressive) book-learning
and opponent recognition will only make it worse. It operates hidden
hardly to see (notice) for the end-user unless you take a very deep
look in the system.

>>This whole auto232 thing is so fragile that I can imagine people
>>don't want to touch it any longer.
>
>It has always been fragile, but more reliable than the very few manual games
>that can be played. Proof: you and I play thousands of automatic games, and
>seldom any manual ones. Why is that? :)

It depends on the intention you are playing these thousands of games. For
me that is to improve Rebel as it gives me a lot of useful data.

Ed




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