Author: Lanny DiBartolomeo
Date: 14:07:41 10/03/99
Go up one level in this thread
On October 03, 1999 at 15:20:55, Havergal Brian wrote: >On October 03, 1999 at 11:23:42, odell hall wrote: > >>On October 03, 1999 at 09:28:52, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On October 03, 1999 at 08:47:54, odell hall wrote: >>> >>>>On October 03, 1999 at 05:28:21, Micheal Cummings wrote: >>>> >>>>>Now that Rebel has won Finally agiast a GM which is what I have been waiting for >>>>>I have a question, or more of a query really. >>>>> >>>>>In the past comments have been made that no program is of GM standard and even >>>>>if a prgram does win, in some people eyes this means very little in the overall >>>>>scheme of programs being better. >>>>> >>>>>But with this game, even though a win is a win. Did Rebel just clearly out play >>>>>the GM or was it a GM stuff up and Rebel was Lucky and took advantage of this >>>>>stuff up. Having no idea how this GM plays I wonder from comments made in the >>>>>past how far this bring computer chess. >>>>> >>>>>Was Rebel was in a good chance of winning from the start or was it a case of "I >>>>>know we are weaker and hope that the GM stuffs up and we take advantage of this >>>>>and win." >>>>> >>>>>This is just a post to give more opinions, not a swipe at Rebel, I have Rebel >>>>>and is one of my two favorite programs and from past posts I have wrote you >>>>>should know that I want it to win. This is just me making conversation on an >>>>>obsevation that was made in the past. >>>>> >>>>>Again Congrate's Rebel and Ed and Team. >>>> >>>> >>>> Well the thing that I have noticed, is that whenever a Computer wins a game >>>>from a human it is always some kind of excuse, too much noise, Grandmaster >>>>wasn't concentrating, time control, got up on the wrong side of the bed, >>>>whatever! I think we forget that people lose games because of a mistakes, if >>>>there was no mistakes made then everygame would be a draw, so to say that the >>>>grandmaster loss because of a mistake is saying very little. I was analyzing the >>>>Game with a Master pal of mine, and it took the master a few seconds to see the >>>>move Rxd7, This makes me think that the move h6 was a strategical decision by >>>>the grandmaster , I doubt that he overlooked Rxd7. >>> >>> >>>what _I_ have noticed is the _same_ thing from _you_. When the computer loses, >>>you accuse the GMs of cheating. When the computer wins, you yell and stomp >>>and say "see, I told you computers were GM players". One of us has a serious >>>problem. It isn't me. >>> >>>My feet are solidly on the ground. >>> >>>Rebel won. There was never a doubt that it would win a game. The question is >>>how many will it win? The gm played a line that was solidly busted. My opening >>>books say ?? for that line. But he went down it and got ripped. >>> >>>However, as far as computers playing at GM level, notice that to obtain a GM >>>norm, you have to do _much_ better than what has happened so far. A string of >>>draws and one win won't cut it. >>> >>>We need more games. Please control yourself, as you look silly with your >>>flip-flopping back and forth. Better to remain silent and be thought a fool >>>than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.. that is good advice for all >>>of us. Because we will have enough games to make some sort of conclusion before >>>long. All the crowing and ranting isn't going to change a thing... >>> >>>IMHO. >> >> >> >> First of all Dr. hyatt you surpise me with the tone of your post, which I >>think is uncalled for, I have a right to express an opinion without being called >>a fool don't I? The question whatever or not computers are grandmasters is >>highly debatable and because I think they are grandmasters is no cause to be >>labeled a fool. I would not expect such vebal abuse from a person of your >>stature. By the way The computers clearly are performing at above 2500 elo based >>on the games we have so far, so it is looking more like you are the one that was >>wrong (or a fool) not me. Secondly you convienently attribute statements to me >>that I did not make, in order to make your own argument look good. I never ever >>accused any grandmaster of cheating, I would like you produce the Post where I >>did. I said that the Rebel challenge has some flaws because the games cannot be >>guarenteed to be without foulplay. For instance, uring yesterday's game infact >>an adminstrator repeatedly warned several people not to kib because the players >>could see the kibs!!! On this alone a player could benefit without neccessarily >>having a intention to cheat. As a scientist surely you would want to make sure >>that the conditions of your experiment is error free?? or else you cannot trust >>the conclusions you draw from that experiment. I was only pointing out the >>possible problems, this is far from accusing someone of cheating, and I resent >>that implication. Lastly when have I been going "back and forth"??? You are >>confusing me with someoneelse, When did I say computers are not grandmasters? >>and then change my mind and say that they are??? Where are you getting this >>from?? In fact I have been consistent of the issue the whole time. Yes I was >>happy with rebel's result, Which is very natural, everyone likes it when some of >>their conclusions seem to be correct. Keep in mind however that my former post >>Proclaims that "computers" not just rebel are grandmasters. If this seems silly >>to you, sorry but the available facts disagree with you. Finally as far as >>computers getting norms to achieve grandmaster status, this is a silly >>observation because you know that not even deepblue could achieve a grandmaster >>norm because they will never allow computers to compete with humans and achieve >>norms in tournaments, so useing that line of reasoning computers will never be >>grandmasters!!! And you can never be wrong!!! > > > >Unless I read Dr. Hyatt's comments incorrectly, he did not call you fool. At >least not directly... ;-) >I would suggest finding out for yourself just how much is required to gain the >elusive GM title. One must do very well in several tournaments against GM >competition. Oh, and take a chill pill. That advice comes free of charge. If someone commented to me about looking silly and better to be thought a fool... YOU bet i'd Know they called me a fool plain and simple. would you enjoy the same exact response to one of your posts?? Please lets be reasonable here, the post wasnt to me yet i read the same thing in it and if I did Im sure others did as well.
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