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Subject: Re: Update on Rebel -Lithuania Re-match?

Author: odell hall

Date: 18:31:30 10/16/99

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On October 16, 1999 at 20:19:25, Stephen A. Boak wrote:

>On October 16, 1999 at 19:03:41, Ratko V Tomic wrote:
>
> <portions snipped>
>
>I only said if they were to play week after week, the Rebel's
>>rating will drop against that tem, althouh, like with coin flips, any given week
>>result can go up or down, but the average over several weeks would show the
>>programs downward slide (or same for the average in the first half of the
>>matches vs the average of the 2nd half of the matches).
>>
>>A well motivated human team would,
>>after some practice, learn the general weaknesses of the program (not just the
>>opening lines which can easily be varied or learned by the program), but
>>fundamental limitations, like lack of longer term planning, lack of common sense
>
>>The real, durable, strength of a program (a plateau to which it will slide
>>against you over time) isn't some average of all such aspects, say, a figure
>>around 2500-2600, which is what comp-comp matches are showing, but it is a
>>figure closer to their weakest aspect, maybe around 2300. You won't in practice
>>(unless ypu're especially motivated and stable player) drive them all the way
>>down to 2100, or whatever their bottom is, since most of us have our weaknesses
>>and can't consistently handle the pressure of hidden tactics a program may
>>discover, even when it has become sparser and less hidden and less dangerious
>>due to our intuitive "defanging" strategies driving the positions away from its
>>strong arm.
>
>  Bottom line, a human is a better 'book learner' or simply 'learner' than a
>program.  :)
>
>  The human is more flexible and adaptive than any program today.  At least a
>human learns faster and perceives (makes up = perceives and applies!) better
>patterns/rules of play than a program.
>
>  A human (not even just the top players alone) is *extremely* good at adapting.
> The brain is wired in a way that programs can never emulate.
>
>  Programs are inflexible to the max, relatively, although they may have some
>rather trivial, programmed means of altering selection of book lines or
>weighting the pieces in differing situations.  The human, however, can create
>overarching strategies that transcend individual moves, weaving a pattern for
>furthering a chess position that a computer could not dream of.
>
>  A human, after all, can see a position for the first time (most chess games
>evolve to unique positions) and apply a 'rule' learned in another, different
>position, noting its current applicability by analogy (good reasoning).  A human
>can even see a position for the first time and reason out a new 'rule' or
>pattern for 'how to play' that succeeds in that new position.  This is
>adaptability, this is flexibleness, this is the creative human way of winning!
>
>  This is the art and practice of chess among better players.
>
>  This also establishes the bar, the lofty goal for chess programmers--to be
>able to beat such adaptable humans at their own planning!  (albeit via rigid,
>rather tactical means, rather than by outthinking in the same vein by better
>planning and strategical maneuvering).
>
>  The human programmer uses two tools (his own brain, and a computer
>hardware/software system) to see if the fruits of his human creativity,
>operating without human intervention on the non-human system
>(hardware/software), can defeat a human brain alone, over the board.  This is an
>exciting inquiry in which we learn much about ourselves, our brains, our ways of
>thinking, and we learn how to use the non-human tools (hardware/software) to
>assist the human (a programmer) to accomplish a task in a better manner than the
>brain alone.
>
>  It also means that a computer may achieve some limited success, but it will
>never 'outthink' the human.  It may outplay, yes, especially under limited time
>circumstances, but that is blind calculation, not doing the same thing in a more
>intelligent way.
>
>  I never-the-less give credit to the intelligence behind a good chess program
>(it is the human behind the scenes I applaud), but little credit to the
>abilities of the software itself.  The success of a program is the success of
>the creative programmer and the human brain!


 Now this is something that I can agree with 100%



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