Author: Dave Gomboc
Date: 14:06:18 10/21/99
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On October 21, 1999 at 16:05:36, Jeremiah Penery wrote: >On October 21, 1999 at 14:23:59, Dave Gomboc wrote: > >>IIRC, Amir once said that Junior extends even more aggressively than DB. >>Unfortunately, he didn't get any quantitative evidence or examples. > >I think that common sense can show that this can't be true. > >At 200M NPS, why was DB getting 'only' 12-14 ply in 3 minutes/move? The reason >is that all the rest of it was extensions. > >At 200k NPS (or whatever it is Junior gets - Even at 400k, it is still 500x >slower than DB), how many ply can it get in 3 minutes/move? 10 ply? 11? (I >really don't know, so someone please enlighten me. :) > >So, even though Junior is at least 500x slower than DB, it can reach comparable >depths _AND_ extend more? I don't think so. I don't think that's the claim. Rather, the claim is that for a given level of brute-force search, Junior will generally extend selected lines of play even further than DB. I think it's clear that Junior's not going to search as many plies full-width, nor do I think Amir ever suggested that. It's interesting, but I really don't know if it's correct or not. >>It's also difficult to know how much knowledge Hiarcs has, unless you happen to >>be its author. > >True. However, it can be said that it most likely has more knowledge than other >micro programs (except CS-Tal). The more knowledge a program has, the slower >its evaluation, and so the slower the NPS, becauase it will take more CPU cycles >to complete. Hiarcs is much slower in terms of NPS than most, and therefore >there is more knowledge. Whether this knowledge is entirely useful always is >certainly debatable. NPS arguments between multiple programs are complete bullshit. How people count nodes is completely up to them. Hans Berliner would count nodes for B*, and you'd think "wow, this is really impressive!" until you realized that he was doing alpha-beta underneath those nodes! CST can do 700 nps, and Junior can do 1x10^6 nps, and that doesn't convince me that CST has more knowledge than Junior, simply because I don't know what each developer is counting as a node, never mind whether that node is visited briefly or a great deal of time is expended on it. >> Sometimes I feel like I know more about DB than I do about the >>commercials. Rebel excepted, of course, thanks to Ed's participation here... >>which is much appreciated. > >I am very glad that Ed participates so much here. I believe he does as much as >anyone to further progress in computer-chess (Rebel vs. GM, his experiments, >such as Chess in 2010, PB-on vs. PB-off, etc.), and hope he continues to do so. >Because of Ed's rather outgoing attitude about his program, I will buy Rebel >before I buy any other commercial program. :) I'll support it too... though I am waiting for something that runs under NT. :-) >Jeremiah Dave
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