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Subject: Re: Chess Genius: The rodney dangerfield of chess programs?

Author: Hans Christian Lykke

Date: 05:08:53 10/24/99

Go up one level in this thread


On October 24, 1999 at 00:38:20, Christophe Theron wrote:

>On October 23, 1999 at 14:15:01, blass uri wrote:
>
>>On October 23, 1999 at 10:44:54, Jonathan Lee wrote:
>>
>>>On October 22, 1999 at 13:45:17, blass uri wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 22, 1999 at 11:27:00, Jonathan Lee wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Chess Genius 6 is about double the cost than Fritz 5.32 and others; that's sad.
>>>>>
>>>>>I remember the game show Family Feud, and the asked who are the best geniuses?
>>>>>They are Einstein, Edison, Da Vinci, (and Alexander Graham Bell?).  I would like
>>>>>to have Richard Lang to be one of them.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, Lang has (extremely most probably) changed the landscape of Eastern
>>>>>European chess.  Russia's official sport relies directly or indirectly on Lang's
>>>>>tactics.
>>>>>
>>>>>Competition and change of computers are rather rapid these days.  There may have
>>>>>been "reverse engineering" of a dozen software companies to equal Lang's code.
>>>>>In America, it is hard to copyright any software; after all it is all zeros and
>>>>>ones.
>>>>>
>>>>>If one had FischeRandom or other chess variants, Lang would be the starting
>>>>>point.  Then, they would add an opening library along the way.
>>>>>
>>>>>There will be software improvements on chess code, but the changes won't be as
>>>>>large as the early 1990's.
>>>>>Jonathan
>>>>
>>>>How do you know?
>>>>I expect big improvements in Junior,Rebel and tiger.
>>>>
>>>>Uri
>>>The quantum rating leaps are (if told truthfully by their advertisements):
>>>1. 2265 USCF to 2325 USCF (Fidelity)
>>>2  2325 USCF to 2424 USCF (Mephisto combines Fidelity for Genius 1)
>>>3. 2424 USCF to 2470 USCF (Genius 2)
>>>4. 2470 USCF to 2495 USCF (Genius 3)
>>>5.?   2500+ USCF (hardware improvements and Genius 5)
>>>6. Deeper Blue is probably 2700 USCF
>>>Please note other software companies have finally caught up with the "Lang
>>>explosion".
>>>I am going to assume that there is a 75 software rating difference between
>>>Genius 3 and Fritz 5.32.  I don't want to go negative, but I find hard to
>>>believe larger improvements are under way;  there will be lots of small ones as
>>>I said in the previous (6th) message OK.
>>>Other softwares (word processing, spreadsheets, AUTOCAD drawing, etc.) will also
>>>have evolutionary (not revolutionary) improvements too.
>>>(This is my 7th message ever.)
>>
>>1)Fidelity,Genius1,Genius2 seems to be the main significant improvement.
>>(205 elo between before Fidelity to Genius2)
>>What is the difference in time between them?
>>What is the difference in ssdf rating(there is not enough information about
>>games against humans)
>>
>>2)The question is about the software improvement so
>>I want to know if they play on the same hardware.
>>
>>3)I think that the difference between Genius3 and tiger12 on the same hardware
>>may be more than 75 ssdf rating.
>>Genius3 is not tested on the same hardware as tiger12 but Genius3 was tested on
>>the same hardware as previous version of tiger and I remember that the
>>difference was close to 75 elo.
>
>
>I don't see Genius3 in the last SSDF list, but I do see Genius5 on P90. And
>Tiger 11.8 was tested on P90 too.

This from the latest SSDF-list (long!) Genius 3 on 33.

 23 Chess Tiger 11.8  Pentium 90 MHz        2483   54   178   57%  2435
  24 Gandalf 3.0  64MB P200 MMX              2468   41   307   59%  2400
  25 193  64MB P200 MMX                      2465   42   279   44%  2508
  26 Kallisto II  64MB P200 MMX              2446   35   403   52%  2431
  27 Rebel 8.0 Pentium 90 MHz                2440   18  1435   55%  2405
  27 Rebel 9.0 Pentium 90 MHz                2440   23   890   47%  2461
  29 Hiarcs 6.0 Pentium 90 MHz               2437   18  1437   51%  2433
  30 Genius 5.0 DOS Pentium 90 MHz           2431   18  1465   48%  2444
  31 Hiarcs 5.0 Pentium 90 MHz               2428   38   363   59%  2363
  32 MChess Pro 6.0 Pentium 90 MHz           2414   17  1669   46%  2441
  33 Genius 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz               2409   26   785   61%  2329
  34 Rebel 6.0 Pentium 90 MHz                2408   31   540   60%  2336





>
>Tiger 11.8 P90 -> 2483 (+54,-52)
>Genius5 DOS P90 -> 2431 (+18,-18)
>
>(number between paranthesis are error margins)
>
>That means that with a good confidence:
>
>2431 <= Tiger 11.8 P90 rating <= 2537
>2413 <= Genius5 DOS P90 rating <= 2449
>
>In the worse case Tiger 11.8 is 18 points below Genius5, in the best case it is
>124 points above.
>
>The most probable is that Tiger 11.8 is 52 points above Genius5.
>
>I expect Tiger 12.0 to be at least 25 points above 11.8, so you are probably
>right: Tiger 12.0 is probably 75 elo points above Genius5.
>
>
>
>
>>4)I know that top programs do many stupid things so I believe that it is
>>possible to improve them significantly.
>
>
>You are right.
>
>
>
>
>>I told Amir Ban about the problems that I found and I believe that he is going
>>to improve Junior significantly.
>>
>>It is more easy to see problems then to fix them but I believe that it is
>>possible to improve the software by more than 100 elo and maybe even more than
>>200 elo in the next 2-3 years.
>>
>>I know that Rebel-tiger programmers also expect at least 100-200 elo software
>>improvement from the fact that they work together.
>
>
>Yes. I think we can achieve this just by exchanging ideas and selecting the best
>ones. I'm not even talking about finding new ideas, and we DO continue to find
>new ideas. Exchanging ideas is a kind of brainstorming, and new ideas appear
>from time to time.
>
>
>
>
>    Christophe



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