Author: Lanny DiBartolomeo
Date: 13:10:00 10/26/99
Go up one level in this thread
On October 25, 1999 at 12:15:28, Enrique Irazoqui wrote: >On October 25, 1999 at 10:32:34, Charles Unruh wrote: > >>On October 25, 1999 at 10:24:57, Enrique Irazoqui wrote: >> >>>On October 25, 1999 at 09:40:16, Charles Unruh wrote: >>> >>>>Several of the people in the following list are GMs. If as some here presume >>>>that comps are only 2450 FIDE strength, then doing the standard attempt at >>>>conversion from Fide to USCF of adding 50 points(MANY say add 80-100) then comps >>>>would be 2500 USCF. Then comps are as strong as GM's Ashley( a new GM at his >>>>height), Palatnik, Sagalchick, Gufeld, and Ziatidinov(has 3 gm norms). If you >>>>added 80 to a 100 as many suggests comps are as strong as many other GMs who are >>>>USCF members. >>> >>>This doesn't work if you mean that programs are comparable to GMs, which is a >>>way to imply that they are at the GM level. >> >> >>They are at GM level just weak gm getting the 3 GM norms is all. There is no >>prog in the top 5 that couldn't get the 3 normes in the 5 year period required >>by fide to get the title that was running on top software, and playing at least >>twice a month in strong swiss events with norms available on the european chess >>circuit. You may disagree but que sera sera(however you spell it :). > >"Che será, será". :) > >You might be right, and at the same time it is also possible that these 5 top >programs you mention wouldn't get a 2200 or 2300 rating in tournaments with FIDE >masters that know chess programs well. > >Maybe what happens is that we are all making the mistake of applying the Elo >system to programs. The Elo system predicts the performance of a human player in >a tournament against known human opposition and this simply does not work for >programs. The strength of programs is not transitive and their performance >against people and other programs is Elo-unpredictable. > >- Aegon 96: Dietrich Steinwender, rated 1850, scored 50%. How did the other contestants score and rating of them? >-Aegon 97: Jeroen Noomen, rated 2180, scored 50%. Same question? or info were to look :) Consistancy is most important, in regular Human tournaments you find A players winning masters/Drawing. Masters beating GMs like in 1 tourny not just 1GM but 3GMs were upset by mere Masters :) One of the Masters was David Vigorito 2380s. there are also way too many games against Master players for me to Know that they are atleast IM strength. I am forever hereing a few of my friends talking about themselves getting stomped at tourny time controls Because of a great move, or the usual tactical oversight. Comps play anti-positional style at times, But quite often these anti-positional moves worked because of long range tactics that weren't spotted until you go back over the game(chessmaster programs are great for this looks bad then kills you dead moves)and no doubt they do play some horrible moves but EVERYONE does but comps can sometimes come back back from crap. >- In the current GM challenge, a group of GMs and IMs with an average rating of >2531 scored 56% against Rebel. >- In these games, Rebel scored the same against Anand (2795), Rohde (2585) and >Sorin-Hoffman (2512). > >Etc. etc. etc. Nothing of this corresponds to what would have been >expected/predicted after the Elo ratings. > >I suspect that we are measuring the strength of programs using a tool that was >not meant for them and doesn't seem to work. > >Enrique > >>>Programs are probably stronger than several active GMs. For example: >>> >>>Pachman, Ludek 2320 >>>Lengyel, Levente 2320 >>>Damjanovic, Mato 2315 >>>Vadasz, Laszlo 2300 >>>Denker, Arnold S 2295 >>>Rossetto, Hector 2285 >>>Suradiradja, Herman 2285 >>>Gurgenidze, Bukhuti 2278 >>> >>>Only that they became grandmasters in their peek times, while none of them would >>>get today the 3 norms at >= 2600. Programs can't reach the level of "real" >>>grandmasters (2600+) by any stretch of imagination. They may be IM at best, and >>>I still have my doubts. >>> >>>Enrique >>> >>>> Root, Douglas D >>>> TX >>>> 2585 >>>> 22 >>>> Ivanov, Alexander >>>> MA >>>> 2584 >>>> 23 >>>> Lakdawala, Cyrus F >>>> CA >>>> 2581 >>>> 24 >>>> Sherzer, Alex I >>>> >>>> 2580 >>>> 25 >>>> Rohde, Michael A >>>> NY >>>> 2578 >>>> 26 >>>> Kreiman, Boris >>>> NY >>>> 2577 >>>> 27 >>>> Garcia, Gildardo >>>> NY >>>> 2576 >>>> 28 >>>> Orlov, Georgi >>>> WA >>>> 2574 >>>> 29 >>>> Kavalek, Lubomir >>>> VA >>>> 2570 >>>> 30 >>>> Shaked, Tal >>>> AZ >>>> 2568 >>>> 31 >>>> Browne, Walter S >>>> CA >>>> 2567 >>>> 32 >>>> Altounian, Levon >>>> CA >>>> 2557 >>>> 33 >>>> Ashley, Maurice A >>>> NY >>>> 2550 >>>> 34 >>>> Sagalchik, Gennady >>>> NY >>>> 2545 >>>> 35 >>>> Palatnik, Semion >>>> TN >>>> 2544 >>>> 36 >>>> Ziatdinov, Rashid >>>> AZ >>>> 2541 >>>> 37 >>>> Felecan, Florin >>>> IL >>>> 2534 >>>> >>>> Waitzkin, Joshua >>>> NY >>>> 2534 >>>> 39 >>>> Lapshun, Yurij >>>> NY >>>> 2531 >>>> 40 >>>> Gufeld, Eduard >>>> CA >>>> 2530 >>>> >>>> Bradford, Joseph Mark >>>> TX >>>> 2530 >>>> 42 >>>> Shliperman, Igor >>>> NY >>>> 2525 >>>> >>>> Blocker, Calvin >>>> OH >>>> 2525 >>>> 44 >>>> Donaldson, W John >>>> CA >>>> 2523
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