Author: Amir Ban
Date: 08:55:49 10/27/99
Go up one level in this thread
On October 26, 1999 at 23:58:26, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On October 26, 1999 at 12:54:02, Amir Ban wrote: > >>On October 25, 1999 at 23:04:42, Peter Kappler wrote: >> >>>On October 25, 1999 at 22:06:11, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On October 25, 1999 at 21:26:11, Jerry wrote: >>>> >>>>>On October 25, 1999 at 20:39:05, Michael Fuhrmann wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Crafty's Blitz rating on ICC hit an incredible 3262 today. It's a new high for >>>>>>Crafty, which is miles ahead of the competition on the ICC best list. Congrats >>>>>>to Hyatt! >>>>> >>>>>One reason Crafty is rated so high is his incredible noplay list, refusing to >>>>>play other high rated computer programs when he loses a few times... >>>> >>>> >>>>Please name the "high rated programs" on crafty's noplay list, if you want to >>>>make a statement like that... >>>> >>>>Here is the actual ICC noplay list: >>>> >>>>********* -human cheating >>>>********* -human cheating >>>>CraftyCrafty -crafty clone >>>>********* -bad behavior >>>>grouchy -crafty clone >>>>********* -human cheating >>>>********* -admitted human cheating >>>>************* -human cheating >>>>ComputerMan -craftyclone >>>>Dementia -disconnector >>>>EA6PZ -censored for attitude >>>>Eza -crafty clone >>>>********* -human cheating >>>>attakinski -disconnector (chessmaster celeron 333) >>>>cookies -crafty clone >>>>criollo -crafty clone >>>>DesX -crafty clone >>>>************* -human cheating >>>>ibrax -human cheating (admitted) >>>>Lippy -crafty clone >>>>bookbuilder -crafty clone >>>>counterplay -crafty clone >>>>***** -human cheating >>>>******** -human caught playing and observing at same time >>>>GODMODE -crafty clone >>>>inmortal -crafty clone >>>>Varguz -disconnector and more than 4 games in a row. >>>>ban -disconnected multiple times in one game. (junior 6.x) >>>>brut -crafty clone >>>>crafty450 -crafty clone >>>>Data -crafty clone >>>>dini -refused to identify program/hardware >>>>egghead -crafty clone >>>>Good-Boy -everybody has noplayed him for attitude >>>>Jack-Daniels -crafty clone >>>>********* -human cheating >>>> >>>>Any names with ***** in them are humans that were caught cheating but which >>>>have not yet gotten a (C) nor admitted it. >>>> >>>>The "disconnectors" are done by my custom interface when I run it. If someone >>>>disconnects two times in one game, does so in two consecutive games, they get >>>>+noplayed for obvious reasons. >>>> >>>>Crafty Clones are _not_ wanted. I can do those games offline. Xboard and my >>>>custom interface both automatically +noplay any crafty clone that matches >>>>crafty. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Here is best(c): >>>> >>>>Standard Blitz Bullet >>>>2827 OzsO(C) 3251 crafty(C) 3123 crafty(C) >>>>2783 Good-Boy(C) 3155 Mofongo(C) 2960 Ferret(C) >>>>2724 Ferret(C) 3145 A-Morozevi(GM) 2956 ZarkovX(C) >>>>2714 Lynnett(C) 3136 Ferret(C) 2857 Sammour-Hasbun >>>>2693 TheComputer(C) 3115 Hawkeye(IM) 2854 Dlugy(GM) >>>>2667 crafty(C) 3069 Vic11 2799 Lippy(C) >>>>2655 SandmanJr(C) 3068 FlyingPike(GM) 2791 Wagner(FM) >>>>2612 KillerGrob(C) 3061 ban(C) 2779 Vic11 >>>>2603 cptnBluebe(GM) 3025 gahan(GM) 2771 vaska(GM) >>>>2593 ZarkovX(C) 3018 Lippy(C) 2760 Secret(C) >>>>2583 counterplay(C) 3016 Tendulkar(GM) 2760 Tack(GM) >>>>2577 singacrafty(C) 3013 cptnBluebe(GM) 2754 KillerGrob(C) >>>>2577 Zenith(C) 3009 Dlugy(GM) 2750 Masterchess(C) >>>>2576 Moron(C) 3006 Rix(IM) 2745 Hawkeye(IM) >>>>2569 Steffie(C) 2996 EggSalad(C) 2733 brut(C) >>>>2548 triskelon(C) 2995 GMAlex(GM) 2721 nataf(GM) >>>>2543 BountyHunte(C) 2990 Lolita(C) 2718 pap(GM) >>>>2542 Lippy(C) 2984 NDShort(GM) 2716 UFGator(C) >>>>2541 mundilfari(C) 2974 jeleen(GM) 2691 jaguar >>>> >>>> >>>>Please show me all those "top-rated" programs I have noplayed. I play Ferret, >>>>Zarkov, etc. On the standard list, I have played ozso until he quit playing me >>>>as he was trying to see how high he could drive his standard rating. I play >>>>Ferret regularly. Sandmanjr. Zarkovx, and bountyhunter (no crafty clones at >>>>all). On the blitz list, I play ferret, have played ban a lot although he got >>>>+noplayed sometime recently by the automatic disconnect detector. >>> >>> >>>This is really disappointing, as Ban and Ferret are the only SMP-capable >>>programs (besides other Crafty clones) on ICC. I enjoyed watching the Crafty >>>vs. Ban encounters - the games were always very tense and well fought. >>> >>>Despite the history between you and Amir, I doubt that the disconnects were >>>intentional. Probably just a poor connection on his side. I hope you will >>>reconsider the "noplay" status. >>> >>>--Peter >> >>I got noplayed by crafty last week. I think it was playing more than 4 games in >>a row rather than disconnecting. At the time crafty's rating was 3146, so it >>seems it's rating jump is a result of noplaying ban. Crafty & clones typically >>gain around 200-300 points when they don't play other computers. I didn't >>realize crafty's noplay list is so long, but looking at it it effectively >>doesn't play top computers any more (ferret is hardly around these days). > > >I shot that argument down once already. Which "top computer programs" have I >refused to play? You have been playing _only_ crafty for weeks, and it didn't >bother me at all. I do _not_ want to play other craftys however, and I don't >feel bad about that at all. However, Crafty is still playing computers on a >regular basis, so you r comment about 2-300 rating points is off-the-wall IMHO. >Computers do seem to want to play more 'standard' games (although bountyhunter >is one strong exception as he plays blitz _and_ bullet and does very well at >those faster time controls... But in the last 24 hours it has played >bountyhunter, sandmanjr, zarkovx, at least. All of which are very strong >computers. > You noplayed the two highest rated blitz computers around (Ban & Varguz). The others are either hundreds of points lower or don't come any longer. Perhaps you didn't notice, but the computer competition on ICC has all but died out. I try to vary my opponents, but if I decide I don't play crafty, I have to see which crafty clone is willing to play me and is not rated 400 points below me, or wait for a non-crafty computer to log in. > > >> >>I know about crafty's rules for not disconnecting (suspicion of cheating, what >>else ?), and not playing more than 4 games in a row against a computer (mustn't >>keep those humans waiting. Mind you it may be hours between games, it's your >>business to keep track of who crafty plays). I find both, in the context of >>games between two competitors for top blitz position to be unsportsmanlike and >>rude, but so be it. > >I don't see it as rude at all. I see it as _my_ perogative to define who/what/ >how-often it can play. _you_ do that all the time. IE his ban shows nothing >but Crafty, except for a couple of recent games vs data and varguz. You >wouldn't be trying >to increase _your_ rating by only playing crafty, would you? Here is your >history: You can do as you please, but if you are too selective in your opponents, you can't claim your rating to be realistic. As I said, I play crafty partly because there's no one else there of roughly equal rating. I don't understand this about trying to increase my rating. When someone with a high rating thinks that playing him is exploitation, he's really saying that his rating is inflated. If the rating is realistic, it will hold. > >94: + 3063 B 2938 Varguz [ br 5 4] C26 Res Oct 26 99 18:47 >93: + 3052 W 2949 Varguz [ br 5 4] D74 Res Oct 26 99 18:36 >92: - 3040 B 2961 Varguz [ br 5 4] A31 Res Oct 26 99 18:23 >91: + 3061 W 2796 Data [ br 5 4] D05 Res Oct 23 99 18:25 >90: = 3055 B 2841 Data [ br 5 4] B51 Rep Oct 20 99 18:50 >89: = 3064 W 2832 Data [ br 5 4] D02 Rep Oct 20 99 18:37 >88: - 3074 W 3146 crafty [ br 5 3] E12 Res Oct 17 99 18:20 >87: - 3088 B 3132 crafty [ br 5 3] C61 Res Oct 17 99 18:08 >86: + 3103 W 3117 crafty [ br 5 3] E12 Res Oct 17 99 17:49 >85: - 3085 B 3135 crafty [ br 5 3] C01 Res Oct 17 99 16:28 >84: = 3100 W 3132 crafty [ br 5 3] D37 NM Oct 16 99 20:06 >83: + 3098 B 3134 crafty [ br 5 3] B31 Res Oct 16 99 19:38 >82: + 3079 W 3146 crafty [ br 5 3] D80 Res Oct 16 99 19:21 >81: - 3058 B 3167 crafty [ br 5 3] C85 Res Oct 16 99 19:06 >80: = 3070 W 3155 crafty [ br 5 3] B01 NM Oct 16 99 18:48 >79: - 3066 B 3159 crafty [ br 5 3] B30 Res Oct 16 99 18:37 >78: - 3079 W 3146 crafty [ br 5 3] E17 Res Oct 16 99 17:42 >77: + 3093 B 3132 crafty [ br 5 3] C01 Res Oct 16 99 17:23 >76: - 3074 W 3151 crafty [ br 5 3] C45 Res Oct 16 99 17:09 >75: - 3088 B 3137 crafty [ br 5 3] B05 Res Oct 16 99 16:59 > > > > >> >>I don't have a noplay list, by the way, but if I did, I think crafty would have >>a place on it. Here is a sample of bad behavior: >> >>- On a previous occasion I was noplayed by crafty after winning three games in a >>row, and on the way to win a 4th one, when I had to disconnect. When trying to >>complete this game I found I was noplayed. I messaged Bob about this, quoting >>the documented ICC rule that censoring someone you have an adjourned game with >>is abuse. I was answered (rudely) that that's just how the program behaves and >>it's my fault. I complained to the ICC admins on that occasion. > > >I believe that I fixed this as soon as you asked. And you weren't answered >"rudely"... You were the one that was highly rude in your tirade. I pointed >out that this was _automatic_. > >> >>- Crafty's connection is often poor, and it has big lags, of up to minutes per >>move. If this happens, don't disconnect ! That's cheating. Crafty sometimes >>disconnects due to connection problems, but that's not cheating. >> >>- Crafty will not accept a draw offer ever, even not when it has insufficient >>material to win. > >yes it will... and it does. But it won't accept draw offers from 'computers' >because that has been the subject of a lot of abuse. Against humans, if the >eval says 'drawscore' for 3 consecutive moves, it will definitely accept (and >offer) draws. > Refusing to draw when you have insufficient material to win is abusive, against computers or otherwise. > >> >>- On one occasion, when the opponent had insufficient material (bishop vs. pawn, >>I think), not only did it refuse to draw, but with several minutes on its clock, >>it did not make a move and let time run out (ICC declared this a draw of >>course). The opponent cannot just walk away because crafty has a pawn. I think >>this is the worst form of abuse I've seen on ICC. > > >crafty doesn't do that. If you want to make things up, feel free. But it does >not _ever_ sit and let the clock run out. It just doesn't. Unless the program >had actually 'hung' due to a bug, which is possible. But as far as abuse, that >is nonsense. Because it doesn't do that. > I had trouble myself believing that it's doing this, but it did. > >> >>In regard to the question of what Crafty's ICC rating reflects: It says >>something, but not much. The current version (17.0 ?) is pretty competent, I >>think, but it doesn't feel much better than 16.6, which was rated hundreds of >>points lower. There were intermediate versions that had ICC ratings above 3200 >>that were definitely soft and were consistently creamed by Junior. Crafty's >>rating is more heavily influenced by whether competition like Ferret and Ban are >>around. >> >>Amir > >based on your game history above, you weren't damaging crafty's rating very >much lately. Which could be because you are debugging something and I am not >at present. Just like some of those 'soft' versions could be versions with bugs >or mis-tuned stuff in them. I don't pay a lot of attention to that myself. But >if you think crafty is 'abusive' (which seems rediculous on the surface) perhaps >you ought not play it? I +noplay 'abusive' players myself, as I don't want the >headache... I come to ICC to play. I don't have noplay lists. Your program displays some over-aggressive behavior that can be called unpleasant to unsportsmanlike according to taste. It would not be forgiven to a serious human player, and the excuse that "it's just a dumb automatic program" is not good enough, since this behavior is not very hard to change. Amir
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