Author: walter irvin
Date: 20:10:51 10/27/99
Go up one level in this thread
On October 27, 1999 at 11:55:49, Amir Ban wrote: >On October 26, 1999 at 23:58:26, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On October 26, 1999 at 12:54:02, Amir Ban wrote: >> >>>On October 25, 1999 at 23:04:42, Peter Kappler wrote: >>> >>>>On October 25, 1999 at 22:06:11, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On October 25, 1999 at 21:26:11, Jerry wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On October 25, 1999 at 20:39:05, Michael Fuhrmann wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Crafty's Blitz rating on ICC hit an incredible 3262 today. It's a new high for >>>>>>>Crafty, which is miles ahead of the competition on the ICC best list. Congrats >>>>>>>to Hyatt! >>>>>> >>>>>>One reason Crafty is rated so high is his incredible noplay list, refusing to >>>>>>play other high rated computer programs when he loses a few times... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Please name the "high rated programs" on crafty's noplay list, if you want to >>>>>make a statement like that... >>>>> >>>>>Here is the actual ICC noplay list: >>>>> >>>>>********* -human cheating >>>>>********* -human cheating >>>>>CraftyCrafty -crafty clone >>>>>********* -bad behavior >>>>>grouchy -crafty clone >>>>>********* -human cheating >>>>>********* -admitted human cheating >>>>>************* -human cheating >>>>>ComputerMan -craftyclone >>>>>Dementia -disconnector >>>>>EA6PZ -censored for attitude >>>>>Eza -crafty clone >>>>>********* -human cheating >>>>>attakinski -disconnector (chessmaster celeron 333) >>>>>cookies -crafty clone >>>>>criollo -crafty clone >>>>>DesX -crafty clone >>>>>************* -human cheating >>>>>ibrax -human cheating (admitted) >>>>>Lippy -crafty clone >>>>>bookbuilder -crafty clone >>>>>counterplay -crafty clone >>>>>***** -human cheating >>>>>******** -human caught playing and observing at same time >>>>>GODMODE -crafty clone >>>>>inmortal -crafty clone >>>>>Varguz -disconnector and more than 4 games in a row. >>>>>ban -disconnected multiple times in one game. (junior 6.x) >>>>>brut -crafty clone >>>>>crafty450 -crafty clone >>>>>Data -crafty clone >>>>>dini -refused to identify program/hardware >>>>>egghead -crafty clone >>>>>Good-Boy -everybody has noplayed him for attitude >>>>>Jack-Daniels -crafty clone >>>>>********* -human cheating >>>>> >>>>>Any names with ***** in them are humans that were caught cheating but which >>>>>have not yet gotten a (C) nor admitted it. >>>>> >>>>>The "disconnectors" are done by my custom interface when I run it. If someone >>>>>disconnects two times in one game, does so in two consecutive games, they get >>>>>+noplayed for obvious reasons. >>>>> >>>>>Crafty Clones are _not_ wanted. I can do those games offline. Xboard and my >>>>>custom interface both automatically +noplay any crafty clone that matches >>>>>crafty. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Here is best(c): >>>>> >>>>>Standard Blitz Bullet >>>>>2827 OzsO(C) 3251 crafty(C) 3123 crafty(C) >>>>>2783 Good-Boy(C) 3155 Mofongo(C) 2960 Ferret(C) >>>>>2724 Ferret(C) 3145 A-Morozevi(GM) 2956 ZarkovX(C) >>>>>2714 Lynnett(C) 3136 Ferret(C) 2857 Sammour-Hasbun >>>>>2693 TheComputer(C) 3115 Hawkeye(IM) 2854 Dlugy(GM) >>>>>2667 crafty(C) 3069 Vic11 2799 Lippy(C) >>>>>2655 SandmanJr(C) 3068 FlyingPike(GM) 2791 Wagner(FM) >>>>>2612 KillerGrob(C) 3061 ban(C) 2779 Vic11 >>>>>2603 cptnBluebe(GM) 3025 gahan(GM) 2771 vaska(GM) >>>>>2593 ZarkovX(C) 3018 Lippy(C) 2760 Secret(C) >>>>>2583 counterplay(C) 3016 Tendulkar(GM) 2760 Tack(GM) >>>>>2577 singacrafty(C) 3013 cptnBluebe(GM) 2754 KillerGrob(C) >>>>>2577 Zenith(C) 3009 Dlugy(GM) 2750 Masterchess(C) >>>>>2576 Moron(C) 3006 Rix(IM) 2745 Hawkeye(IM) >>>>>2569 Steffie(C) 2996 EggSalad(C) 2733 brut(C) >>>>>2548 triskelon(C) 2995 GMAlex(GM) 2721 nataf(GM) >>>>>2543 BountyHunte(C) 2990 Lolita(C) 2718 pap(GM) >>>>>2542 Lippy(C) 2984 NDShort(GM) 2716 UFGator(C) >>>>>2541 mundilfari(C) 2974 jeleen(GM) 2691 jaguar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Please show me all those "top-rated" programs I have noplayed. I play Ferret, >>>>>Zarkov, etc. On the standard list, I have played ozso until he quit playing me >>>>>as he was trying to see how high he could drive his standard rating. I play >>>>>Ferret regularly. Sandmanjr. Zarkovx, and bountyhunter (no crafty clones at >>>>>all). On the blitz list, I play ferret, have played ban a lot although he got >>>>>+noplayed sometime recently by the automatic disconnect detector. >>>> >>>> >>>>This is really disappointing, as Ban and Ferret are the only SMP-capable >>>>programs (besides other Crafty clones) on ICC. I enjoyed watching the Crafty >>>>vs. Ban encounters - the games were always very tense and well fought. >>>> >>>>Despite the history between you and Amir, I doubt that the disconnects were >>>>intentional. Probably just a poor connection on his side. I hope you will >>>>reconsider the "noplay" status. >>>> >>>>--Peter >>> >>>I got noplayed by crafty last week. I think it was playing more than 4 games in >>>a row rather than disconnecting. At the time crafty's rating was 3146, so it >>>seems it's rating jump is a result of noplaying ban. Crafty & clones typically >>>gain around 200-300 points when they don't play other computers. I didn't >>>realize crafty's noplay list is so long, but looking at it it effectively >>>doesn't play top computers any more (ferret is hardly around these days). >> >> >>I shot that argument down once already. Which "top computer programs" have I >>refused to play? You have been playing _only_ crafty for weeks, and it didn't >>bother me at all. I do _not_ want to play other craftys however, and I don't >>feel bad about that at all. However, Crafty is still playing computers on a >>regular basis, so you r comment about 2-300 rating points is off-the-wall IMHO. >>Computers do seem to want to play more 'standard' games (although bountyhunter >>is one strong exception as he plays blitz _and_ bullet and does very well at >>those faster time controls... But in the last 24 hours it has played >>bountyhunter, sandmanjr, zarkovx, at least. All of which are very strong >>computers. >> > >You noplayed the two highest rated blitz computers around (Ban & Varguz). The >others are either hundreds of points lower or don't come any longer. > >Perhaps you didn't notice, but the computer competition on ICC has all but died >out. I try to vary my opponents, but if I decide I don't play crafty, I have to >see which crafty clone is willing to play me and is not rated 400 points below >me, or wait for a non-crafty computer to log in. > > >> >> >>> >>>I know about crafty's rules for not disconnecting (suspicion of cheating, what >>>else ?), and not playing more than 4 games in a row against a computer (mustn't >>>keep those humans waiting. Mind you it may be hours between games, it's your >>>business to keep track of who crafty plays). I find both, in the context of >>>games between two competitors for top blitz position to be unsportsmanlike and >>>rude, but so be it. >> >>I don't see it as rude at all. I see it as _my_ perogative to define who/what/ >>how-often it can play. _you_ do that all the time. IE his ban shows nothing >>but Crafty, except for a couple of recent games vs data and varguz. You >>wouldn't be trying >>to increase _your_ rating by only playing crafty, would you? Here is your >>history: > >You can do as you please, but if you are too selective in your opponents, you >can't claim your rating to be realistic. > >As I said, I play crafty partly because there's no one else there of roughly >equal rating. > >I don't understand this about trying to increase my rating. When someone with a >high rating thinks that playing him is exploitation, he's really saying that his >rating is inflated. If the rating is realistic, it will hold. > > >> >>94: + 3063 B 2938 Varguz [ br 5 4] C26 Res Oct 26 99 18:47 >>93: + 3052 W 2949 Varguz [ br 5 4] D74 Res Oct 26 99 18:36 >>92: - 3040 B 2961 Varguz [ br 5 4] A31 Res Oct 26 99 18:23 >>91: + 3061 W 2796 Data [ br 5 4] D05 Res Oct 23 99 18:25 >>90: = 3055 B 2841 Data [ br 5 4] B51 Rep Oct 20 99 18:50 >>89: = 3064 W 2832 Data [ br 5 4] D02 Rep Oct 20 99 18:37 >>88: - 3074 W 3146 crafty [ br 5 3] E12 Res Oct 17 99 18:20 >>87: - 3088 B 3132 crafty [ br 5 3] C61 Res Oct 17 99 18:08 >>86: + 3103 W 3117 crafty [ br 5 3] E12 Res Oct 17 99 17:49 >>85: - 3085 B 3135 crafty [ br 5 3] C01 Res Oct 17 99 16:28 >>84: = 3100 W 3132 crafty [ br 5 3] D37 NM Oct 16 99 20:06 >>83: + 3098 B 3134 crafty [ br 5 3] B31 Res Oct 16 99 19:38 >>82: + 3079 W 3146 crafty [ br 5 3] D80 Res Oct 16 99 19:21 >>81: - 3058 B 3167 crafty [ br 5 3] C85 Res Oct 16 99 19:06 >>80: = 3070 W 3155 crafty [ br 5 3] B01 NM Oct 16 99 18:48 >>79: - 3066 B 3159 crafty [ br 5 3] B30 Res Oct 16 99 18:37 >>78: - 3079 W 3146 crafty [ br 5 3] E17 Res Oct 16 99 17:42 >>77: + 3093 B 3132 crafty [ br 5 3] C01 Res Oct 16 99 17:23 >>76: - 3074 W 3151 crafty [ br 5 3] C45 Res Oct 16 99 17:09 >>75: - 3088 B 3137 crafty [ br 5 3] B05 Res Oct 16 99 16:59 >> >> >> >> >>> >>>I don't have a noplay list, by the way, but if I did, I think crafty would have >>>a place on it. Here is a sample of bad behavior: >>> >>>- On a previous occasion I was noplayed by crafty after winning three games in a >>>row, and on the way to win a 4th one, when I had to disconnect. When trying to >>>complete this game I found I was noplayed. I messaged Bob about this, quoting >>>the documented ICC rule that censoring someone you have an adjourned game with >>>is abuse. I was answered (rudely) that that's just how the program behaves and >>>it's my fault. I complained to the ICC admins on that occasion. >> >> >>I believe that I fixed this as soon as you asked. And you weren't answered >>"rudely"... You were the one that was highly rude in your tirade. I pointed >>out that this was _automatic_. >> >>> >>>- Crafty's connection is often poor, and it has big lags, of up to minutes per >>>move. If this happens, don't disconnect ! That's cheating. Crafty sometimes >>>disconnects due to connection problems, but that's not cheating. >>> >>>- Crafty will not accept a draw offer ever, even not when it has insufficient >>>material to win. >> >>yes it will... and it does. But it won't accept draw offers from 'computers' >>because that has been the subject of a lot of abuse. Against humans, if the >>eval says 'drawscore' for 3 consecutive moves, it will definitely accept (and >>offer) draws. >> > >Refusing to draw when you have insufficient material to win is abusive, against >computers or otherwise. > >> >>> >>>- On one occasion, when the opponent had insufficient material (bishop vs. pawn, >>>I think), not only did it refuse to draw, but with several minutes on its clock, >>>it did not make a move and let time run out (ICC declared this a draw of >>>course). The opponent cannot just walk away because crafty has a pawn. I think >>>this is the worst form of abuse I've seen on ICC. >> >> >>crafty doesn't do that. If you want to make things up, feel free. But it does >>not _ever_ sit and let the clock run out. It just doesn't. Unless the program >>had actually 'hung' due to a bug, which is possible. But as far as abuse, that >>is nonsense. Because it doesn't do that. >> > >I had trouble myself believing that it's doing this, but it did. > > >> >>> >>>In regard to the question of what Crafty's ICC rating reflects: It says >>>something, but not much. The current version (17.0 ?) is pretty competent, I >>>think, but it doesn't feel much better than 16.6, which was rated hundreds of >>>points lower. There were intermediate versions that had ICC ratings above 3200 >>>that were definitely soft and were consistently creamed by Junior. Crafty's >>>rating is more heavily influenced by whether competition like Ferret and Ban are >>>around. >>> >>>Amir >> >>based on your game history above, you weren't damaging crafty's rating very >>much lately. Which could be because you are debugging something and I am not >>at present. Just like some of those 'soft' versions could be versions with bugs >>or mis-tuned stuff in them. I don't pay a lot of attention to that myself. But >>if you think crafty is 'abusive' (which seems rediculous on the surface) perhaps >>you ought not play it? I +noplay 'abusive' players myself, as I don't want the >>headache... > >I come to ICC to play. I don't have noplay lists. Your program displays some >over-aggressive behavior that can be called unpleasant to unsportsmanlike >according to taste. It would not be forgiven to a serious human player, and the >excuse that "it's just a dumb automatic program" is not good enough, since this >behavior is not very hard to change. > >Amir i think it is insane all this worry about ratings .in case no one has figured it out yet ratings on icc are not that important .plus at fast time controls like bullet to me its not even chess anymore more like ping pong .very few humans could even move the mouse that fast . i created a program and joined icc , but i have no idea how weak or strong my program is , other than when i play against it .since it is a dos program and i dont have it conected through winboard where it would be automatic , i must make all the moves .that makes any games with out at least a 10 sec added unplayable by my program .i have not tried lately but when i did try i could not get a game , unless it was 2 0 or 1 0 the only games i could get were with guest it seemed .so i have given up , instead i play it against programs that i have such as CM , Hiarcs, Fritz ,Crafty ect .i would never put anyone on a no play list or only play someone if they had a high rating .they act like if they get there rating at a certain level there is money at stake or something .actually they act like scared gun fighters hoping and praying they can avoid anyone who might beat them and only attacking a good fighter when he's drunk to esculate there reputation as some one to fear .
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