Author: Alexander Kure
Date: 13:51:56 10/28/99
Go up one level in this thread
On October 28, 1999 at 15:43:02, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >On October 28, 1999 at 14:50:42, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On October 28, 1999 at 14:26:57, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >> >>>On October 27, 1999 at 15:22:29, Alexander Kure wrote: >>> >>>>On October 27, 1999 at 11:55:49, Amir Ban wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>You noplayed the two highest rated blitz computers around (Ban & Varguz). The >>>>>others are either hundreds of points lower or don't come any longer. >>>>> >>>> >>>>As I run Varguz on my second compi I think I can add something: >>>> >>>>I do not care if Crafty is noplaying Varguz. I do not have a noplaylist, cause I >>>>simply do not care. I think Crafty is an amateur program that could learn a lot >>>>from playing the commercials. >>>>Let me put it this way: Compared to the strong commercial programs like Junior, >>>>Fritz, Hiarcs and Nimzo Crafty is much weaker and needs some improvements to be >>>>a match for the above programs on equal hardware. >>> >>>Be fair. You are forgetting that the commercial programs do not publish their >>>source code. Sure they are stronger, they have the crafty source code to look >>>at. Due to this, one might say that crafty defines the dividing line between the >>>top programs and the also rans. If your program is not at least as good as >>>crafty, then it is not a top program. No matter how much Hyatt improves his >>>program, he will never be able to best the top programs (for very long anyway), >>>since he gives away all his ideas. >>> >>>> >>>>Greetings Alex >> >> >>And we _know_ that nobody uses those outdated ideas in Crafty, right? :) >> >>IE book learning, some of the evaluation terms... etc. I have been really >>hesitant to release the new pawn majority code because no one else is doing >>this that I can recognize, at least not doing it effectively. The minute 17.0 >>hits the street, others will be doing it soon. >> >>Good or bad? > >Not just good, great! Crafty has doubtless elevated the playing strength of all >chess programs (both commercial and non-) by making the source public. Alex got >it backwards: The important point is not so much that crafty _could_ learn a lot >from the commercial programs, but rather the commercial programs _do_ learn a >lot from crafty. > >> >>A one-way flow of information? > >Yes. If they want to compete with crafty on an equal footing, they should >publish their source. > >> >>Is it really worth it? I cannot confirm that commercial programs _do_ learn a lot from crafty's source code. What can be learnt from it? How Passed Pawns are being handled. Not as effective as Nimzo does. Well what about Crafty's King safty - Nimzo is very bad on this - surely I can copy from Crafty's - sounds ridiculous to me. Crafty's opening book? Nice compilation of standard games but what about anlysis that has never been played? Think my book does the better job. Just to think there is a source code available for free and all people - including the proffesional chess programmers - jump on it like thirsty people in the desert - hm. I also cannot confirm that there is what you call a one-way flow of information. Ever been to a computer chess event? Both professional and amateur programmers exchange a lot of ideas there. Can you image all the e-mail contact between them? Maybe they are talking a little bit more than about the wheather? There are many different channels of information exchange which you may not be aware of. So asuming you never heard of anything does not imply that is does not exist. Ever asked Chrilly Donninger about how he has implemented Null Move? Ask him and he will tell you! Just to put things right. I think what Bob does is wonderful for the computer chess community. Many amateurs profit from what he has done and will profit from what he will be doing in the future. I personally appreciate this! Not because I will profit personally (I am not interested in that) but because with this he keeps many people (amateurs) in the run for learning and improving their program. Thx Alex
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