Author: pete
Date: 01:05:33 11/01/99
Go up one level in this thread
On October 31, 1999 at 23:24:19, Micheal Cummings wrote: >On October 31, 1999 at 21:58:16, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On October 31, 1999 at 20:17:56, Micheal Cummings wrote: >> >>>On October 31, 1999 at 15:15:39, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On October 31, 1999 at 14:54:12, Pillsbury wrote: > > >>Here's a trivia question for you: How many _different_ internet hosts have >>downloaded a copy of crafty source or a crafty executable? This does not >>include book downloads or EGTB downloads. How many would you guess? I'll >>delay giving you the current stat. But start your guessing at 6 digits. >>At least. >> >>And I am talking about direct anonymous ftp from _my_ web site where we log >>every transfer. Gambitsoft and others are not counted. > >I am sure their are stacks of people, like you said. > > >>>When I hear people want to know about freeware chess, it is cause they do not >>>have enough money to buy a commercial product. And they want the strongest >>>Freeware they can get their hands on. >> >> >>The freeware programs can, I'll bet, beat you easily. Because they can beat >>me. So 'strongest' is meaningless unless you use one to play on a chess >server, which is not so common for commercial programs (no auto interface >except for the CSTal two-computer lash-up). When you are splitting firewood, >is an 8 pound sledge heavy enough? Or will a 16 pounder help even more? >After a while, more pounds does _not_ equate to better splitting. > >About 8/10 freeware chess programs can beat me easily. And as for strength, As >shown when Hiarcs topped the SSDF and other programs, Alot of people buy for the >pure strength of the engine. How many people would have gone out and bought CM6K >simply because it was top of the SSDF. Everyone agrees for serious chess the >interface and features have alot left to be desired for CM6K. > >People even if they are crap at chess, still feel good knowing that at least >they have the strongest program and if one day they beat it, which is what most >aim for. Then they know they have done something special. Beating the strongest >program on the SSDF means alot more to people that beating most freeware >engines. (there are a few which are strong; Crafty, comet, Lambchop, etc) which >people consider might compete with some commercials. > >It comes down to the simple male thought patterns of my penis is bigger than >your penis. The bigger the better, the stronger the better, the better looking >the better. The more expensive the Better. even though not always true, human >conditioning had made this so. You can argue against it, but there are a million >more for each person who would follow this rule. > >Like CM6K, and the debate that raged on here, how can a cheap program with >amature features beat the cream of the crop serious chess programs. > > > > >>>I take your point of good freeware, and those can take up a very large part of >>>computer program usage by people in certain areas (like the internet). But they >>>are also a very small percentage of the whole market. Which is the point I an >>>trying to make. 3% good, 97% crap. >> >> >>I think your numbers are way off. I think that commercial and freeware programs have an _equal_ number of good examples and flops. > >On average most freeware are smaller programs with very unattractive interfaces. > >When you talk about your day and what freeware you use. I work as a chemist, >send email from work and home, surf the net. You do alot more than most people >on the net and program. But for the average user, Families, teenagers, people >who just chat and surf. Freeware is games and utilities to them, most, including >me, never use nor touch some of the things you get up too. > >You are looking at the net from your point of view which is not ordinary, you >lead a more extrordinary computer and net life, to say the normal surfer and >computer user. > >Freeware on average is more ungly to look at and has lesser features than >commercial comparatives. Commercials are not all perfect, but there is a high >percentage that they are. They need it to be to make money (usually for a >living) wheras freeware do it for a Hobbby, Interest, Love, to further the >advancement in specific fields. > >I will leave it at this, I have used many Commercial, Freeware and shareware, >Freeware is USUALLY (but not always) unaaceptable, shareware is a step better, >and fully commercial in-store programs are another step ahead. There is crap in >all, but on AVERAGE from my experience this is the case. > >There was a time when I would try every freeware thing that looked interesting, >and 99% are now off my system. > >I think we will have to agree is disagree on this, yes there are good and bad on >both sides, but more bad on freeware IMHO :) > >I have a question for you, if you had the top ten programs on the SSDF and the >top 10 freeware programs. And were told to get rid of 10 of the 20. What >percentage would be commercial and what percentage would be freeware. > >If you can give me 5 freeware programs that you would seriously keep over >commercial programs in the final 10 programs and give me a good reason, then I >will declare you KING !!!! I don't know if this has become a private discussion , so forgive me to jump in. I will treat all programs that I can get on the Internet for free as freeware ( else this discussion is quite useless as most programs you were talking about have certain copyright rules , i.e. crafty ) Even then I think "freeware" programs have a lot to offer and can live very well among the commercial ones even when it is limited to chess software. First major problem is that freeware programs usually don't get much advertisement , so you might not even know them . For example I never had heard about crafty before I got an Internet Connection ( that was before it was put as additional product on most Chess CDs ). 1. Rich of features ? Did you ever try the freeware chess programm "Bringer" ? It has reasonable strength and IMO it has a better interface than most commercial ones and several features I never have seen elsewhere . I can copy and paste the analysis to any other application while it is thinking just like I do that out of a text ; the book editing is very easy ; all parameters can be adjusted in the interface ( no chssbase.ini :=) ) ; all windows can be adjusted to my personal needs and the program automatically remembers my favourite settings etc. etc. [ stop here before this gets an ad ] Another one with nice features is PAX . 2. What do you need them for ? I am no grandmaster but for example I sometimes like to analyze chess positions with the help of a strong chess program for not missing too much . To my experience the freeware Crafty seems to be the best of them when it is about endgames. Also some freeware programs have a unique playing style that simply is fun to watch , try Anmon5.01 for example . When we forget about the limit to chess programs it seems that I constantly use freeware programs much more often than commercial ones , I use the Forte News Agent , winzip , you will be easily able to add 10 others for yourself :=) I agree that maybe 90% of the freeware is crap ; is this a problem when you don't have to pay for it ? When talking about commercial products this is a much harder problem unless you are a millionaire . I own a few chessprograms I had to pay for which I nearly never used again after giving the company my money as they simply are bad or not what I was looking for : for example Combat Chess or Genius6 ; I know that I sometimes will be unhappy with something I bought but I won't want to try every program I see as this would become an expensive hobby. But when you hear about a new freeware programm people like I can simply give it a try and quite often I am surprised that they are just what I was looking for , else I simply delete them and forget about them again :=) I am not sure about the 10 out of 20 example as probably noone would like to even have and use 20 programs for chess , but for my private purposes I use freeware chess programs more than 50% of the time .
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