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Subject: Re: A crippled TIGER is still much better than a full strength CRAFTY :)

Author: Enrique Irazoqui

Date: 11:12:26 11/01/99

Go up one level in this thread


On November 01, 1999 at 14:00:03, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On November 01, 1999 at 12:32:35, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:
>
>>On November 01, 1999 at 09:30:30, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On November 01, 1999 at 02:32:48, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 31, 1999 at 22:11:12, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>>>We need two tests:  A significant crafty vs tiger match.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>So you say that the match played by Enrique was not significant?
>>>>
>>>>I don't understand. You need a hardware advantage, and you had a hardware
>>>>advantage in Enrique's match. You had the PIII-500, I had the PII-300.
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't have a clue what you are talking about.  I have pointed out for _years_
>>>that everything I do has been targeted at beating human players, in preventing
>>>them from using their normal anti-computer strategies.  I'm interested in how
>>>you do against crafty.  And how you do against humans as well.  Or are you only
>>>interested in tiger vs computers, as you and Ed stated when you 'merged'???
>>>
>>>As far as enriques test goes, I can't say much either way.  I don't know what
>>>book.  Etc.  I only take responsibility for "crafty" as it plays on ICC because
>>>I know what it uses.
>>
>>Do you mean that games played by people other than you are not valid?
>>
>
>Did you see where I said that?  I said that "I can't say either way.  I don't
>know what book, etc..."

Plus: "I Only...". That was the ambiguity.


>>The book, the sound General that comes with F5, wasn't Crafty's, but it was much
>>better and bigger than Tiger's skeleton book of 7682 positions. I used this
>>midget book precisely to compensate for Crafty not playing with its own. This
>>book difference must have played in favor of Crafty by giving more computing
>>time to it. You can check for yourself that Crafty didn't dislike its positions
>>after book. So maybe Crafty didn't always play its favorite lines, but neither
>>did Tiger.
>
>
>One easy question...  take a peek at several of the games.  What was the eval
>on the first search out of book?  Generally +, generally =, or generally -
>some value?

The average is about equal for both. That's why I said before that Crafty didn't
dislike the positions out of book.

>The book is an integral part of the chess engine.  That is why I distribute a
>book.bin with 'learning' in place, so that after taking a huge PGN file, and
>turning it in to a reasonably reliable book, I can still cull those outright
>blunders that always show up.

Sure. But there are no bad lines played in these 82 games. They all come from
2500+ players and Crafty didn't dislike them. It's a pretty decent book, I
think.


>>I checked for differences in Crafty as a winboard engine and as a native engine
>>for Fritz, and I could not detect any, except for winboard running about 2%
>>faster in NPS than Fritz. I checked this with games and test positions: same
>>moves, same PVs. Below I copy some.
>>
>>Enrique
>
>
>I worry more about (when comparing anything else to 'crafty' on ICC):
>
>1.  what book?
>
>2.  EGTB's used?

Yes

>3.  what interface?

Fritz

>4.  one or two computers?

2

>5.  what else is running?

Crafty: W98, nothing else. Tiger: pure dos.

Enrique

>that is why I said _I_ primarily pay attention to results I get and let everyone
>else have fun with their 'crafty clones' on the servers.  They can tweak with
>the book, tweak with the eval, tweak with the search extensions, and use what-
>ever hardware they want...
>
>But when I want to test/evaluate something I _always_ run it on my box.
>
>_always_...
>
>Too many variables otherwise...
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Badai,B
>>8/1p6/p4p1p/2p1P2k/5P2/6pP/1P4P1/6K1 w - - 0 1
>>
>>Analysis by Crafty 16.18:
>>
>>1.exf6 Kg6 2.f7 Kxf7
>>  ²  (0.63)   depth: 1   00:00:00
>>  µ  (-1.15)   depth: 3   00:00:00
>>1.e6 Kg6 2.f5+ Kg7 3.Kf1 c4 4.Ke2 b5
>>  µ  (-0.75)   depth: 3   00:00:00
>>  µ  (-1.12)   depth: 19   00:00:46  13687kN
>>1.f5
>>  µ  (-0.72)   depth: 19   00:01:16  22727kN
>>  µ  (-0.72)   depth: 19   00:01:16  22727kN
>>
>>Winboard:
>>
>>depth=19 -0.72 1. f5!!
>>Nodes: 24313481 NPS: 313843
>>Time: 00:01:17.47
>>
>>_______________________________________________________
>>
>>Botvinnik,M - Capablanca,J
>>8/p5kp/1p2Pnp1/3pQ3/2pP4/qnP3N1/6PP/6K1 w - - 0 1
>>
>>Analysis by Crafty 16.18:
>>
>>31.e7 Qc1+ 32.Kf2
>>  -+  (-3.76)   depth: 1   00:00:00
>>31.Qc7+ Kh8 32.Qb8+ Kg7 33.Qc7+
>>  =  (0.00)   depth: 4   00:00:01
>>  =  (0.00)   depth: 11   00:00:19  4898kN
>>31.Nh5+
>>  ²  (0.40)   depth: 11   00:01:01  14936kN
>>  ²  (0.40)   depth: 11   00:01:01  14936kN
>>
>>Winboard:
>>
>>depth=11 +0.40 1. Nh5+!!
>>Nodes: 15174959 NPS: 251824
>>Time: 00:01:00.26
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________________
>>
>>Suetin - Kasparian,G
>>8/pr3pk1/4p1p1/q1pnP1Br/1pQ1R2P/3R4/PPP2P2/K7 b - - 0 1
>>
>>Analysis by Crafty 16.18:
>>
>>1...Kg8 2.Rg4
>>  ±  (1.31)   depth: 1   00:00:00
>>  +-  (1.47)   depth: 2   00:00:00
>>1...Qb5 2.Qb3 Qc6 3.Rg3 Qb5 4.Rc4 Kg8 5.Qd3
>>  ±  (1.25)   depth: 2   00:00:00
>>  ±  (1.33)   depth: 8   00:00:02  450kN
>>1...Kg8 2.Rd1 Rd7 3.Qb3
>>  ±  (1.18)   depth: 8   00:00:04  901kN
>>1...Rd7 2.Re2 Kg8 3.Red2 Qc7 4.Qe4 c4 5.Rd4 c3
>>  ±  (1.17)   depth: 8   00:00:07  1735kN
>>  ±  (1.17)   depth: 9   00:00:13  3135kN
>>1...Qb5 2.Qb3 Qa6 3.Rd1 Rb5 4.Rg4 Kg8 5.Kb1 Ra5 6.f3
>>  ±  (1.05)   depth: 9   00:00:18  4575kN
>>  ±  (1.00)   depth: 10   00:00:24  6253kN
>>1...Rxg5 2.hxg5 Nb6 3.Qb3 c4 4.Rxc4 Nxc4 5.Qxc4 Rc7 6.Qb3 Qxe5
>>  ²  (0.70)   depth: 10   00:00:37  9839kN
>>  ²  (0.70)   depth: 10   00:00:37  9839kN
>>
>>Winboard:
>>
>>depth=10 +0.70 1. ... Rxg5 2. hxg5 Nb6 3. Qb3 c4 4. Rxc4 Nxc4 5. Qxc4 Rc7 6. Qb3
>>Qxe5
>>Nodes: 10686290 NPS: 279965
>>Time: 00:00:38.17



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