Author: Christophe Theron
Date: 15:20:21 11/01/99
Go up one level in this thread
On November 01, 1999 at 16:10:04, James B. Shearer wrote:
>On November 01, 1999 at 01:44:56, Christophe Theron wrote:
>
>>On October 31, 1999 at 19:20:00, James B. Shearer wrote:
>>
>>>On October 31, 1999 at 18:10:33, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 31, 1999 at 04:04:41, Peter McKenzie wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On October 31, 1999 at 02:28:52, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On October 31, 1999 at 00:02:37, Peter McKenzie wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On October 30, 1999 at 17:52:02, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>(snip)
>>>>
>>>>>>>>I would not be surprised if Chess Tiger 12.0 on PII-300 was able to stand Crafty
>>>>>>>>on a Quad-Xeon. After all that would only be a 4x speed advantage for Crafty. :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?
>>>>>>>I'll look forward to seeing tiger on ICC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'll do when I have some free time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Is there something in what I say you don't find reasonnable?
>>>>>
>>>>>To be honest I find the tone of your post somewhat distasteful.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Really Peter?
>>>>
>>>>Probably you have missed the recent cute exchange between Bob and Amir? Bob
>>>>using words like "full of snot".
>>>>
>>>>If you find my message "distasteful" I'm wondering what you would have said
>>>>about Bob's.
>>>>
>>>>You missed it, did you?
>>>
>>> Hyatt didn't solicit his opinion, you did.
>>>
>>>>What I wanted to point out in my message is that Crafty, that some are taking as
>>>>a reference, is YEARS BEHIND the top programs.
>>>>
>>>>Not only behind Tiger in fact. I'm pretty sure you can repeat the same
>>>>experiment with the top commercial programs, namely:
>>>>
>>>> Fritz5.32
>>>> Rebel10
>>>> Hiarcs7.32
>>>> Junior5.0
>>>> Nimzo99
>>>> MChessPro6.0
>>>> Shredder2
>>>> Genius5
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>As a measure of how much it is behind I would say that in my opinion it is at
>>>>least 100 elo points behind.
>>>>
>>>>That's HUGE.
>>>>
>>>>That's why I think Tiger on a PII-400 would stand Crafty on Quad-Xeon.
>>>>Unfortunately I have only a K6-2-300, so I'll have to try the experiment (if Bob
>>>>agrees) with a 4x handicap, which probably translates to a 120-160 elo points
>>>>handicap.
>>>>
>>>>Is it that distateful to point out that Crafty is so far behind?
>>>
>>> Arrogance can be distasteful even when justified.
>>
>>
>>On the issue of arrogance, my model here is Bob. I read all his posts and I
>>thought it was just fine to adopt the same style.
>>
>>If you were fair you would have reacted to some of the recent posts from Bob. I
>>regret you did not.
>
> Give me a break. As I pointed out in my last post you originally asked:
>
>>>>>>Is there something in what I say you don't find reasonnable?
>
> McKenzie replied:
>
>>>>>To be honest I find the tone of your post somewhat distasteful.
>
> You then jumped on McKenzie. I thought this was unreasonable and said so.
>If you didn't his want his opinion you shouldn't have asked for it.
> As for Hyatt I did think the "snot" remark was a bit objectionable. So
>what? I'm not his mother or even a moderator. I don't have the time or the
>energy to react to everything I find a bit objectionable on this forum. I don't
>even read everything on this forum. So I just react to posts I find
>particularly irritating. Your's made the cut.
I have indeed made an irritating post. I suffer Hyatt's irritating posts since
such a long time that something like that had to happen one day.
> I have criticized Hyatt in the past and even objected myself to the
>appearance of a double standard. I don't see much evidence of one at the
>present, the current moderators seem pretty tolerant with everybody.
The moderators' work is I understand terribly difficult. Especially when a well
known poster thinks that because he gives things for free he is allowed to
repeatedly shoot at commercial programmers and use an unpleasant tone, half of
the time.
I'm probably not making the moderation job easier myself by the kind of tone I
have used recently.
I apogolize for all the people who thought I'm a nice kind guy. I'm just a
normal guy.
I used to like what Bob is doing, but I realize there are less and less reasons
to appreciate him anymore.
>>> As for whether Crafty is ahead or behind, Crafty can use multiple
>>>processors and some other programs cannot which I expect you are ignoring.
>>
>>Of course I know that.
>>
>>
>>
>>>It is unreasonable to say Crafty is behind based on ignoring areas in which
>>>Crafty is ahead.
>>
>>Crafty has been initially developped as a single processor PC program IIRC. As
>>such, his algorithms are definitely behind most of the commercial programs.
>>
>>Crafty indeed needs several processors to get the strength of a good commercial
>>program running on a single processor.
>>
>>So if the following is more to your taste: "Crafty needs a big hardware
>>advantage to play equal with the good commercial programs".
>
> What advantage? We will give both programs multiprocessors. If other
>programs are too backward to use the extra processors that's not Hyatt's fault.
That's interesting. So you consider most of the top programs to be backward?
Christophe
>>> If these other programs are all so great why does everybody run crafty
>>>clones on ICC?
>>
>>Because it is more easy to connect Crafty to ICC? I don't know exactly. You tell
>>me...
>
> Well partly because Crafty is free, but mostly because it is better
>suited for running on ICC than the commercial programs. Another way in which
>Crafty is ahead not behind.
> James B. Shearer
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