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Subject: Re: Question: Where do you set your null move threashold?

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 08:42:00 11/15/99

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On November 15, 1999 at 09:45:49, Bas Hamstra wrote:

>On November 15, 1999 at 07:29:16, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On November 14, 1999 at 22:58:19, James Robertson wrote:
>>
>>>On November 14, 1999 at 22:16:33, Will Singleton wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 14, 1999 at 21:45:26, William Bryant wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I recently found that my null threashold is set to low, and I am experimenting
>>>>>with different level.
>>>>>
>>>>>I am curious what other people have found works for them.
>>>>>
>>>>>Do you count pieces or pieces and pawns?
>>>>>
>>>>>How may pieces or pieces and pawns must be present for the side on move
>>>>>to allow a null move?
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>>William
>>>>>wbryant@ix.netcom.com
>>>>
>>>>I originally had a threshold of around 3 pieces per side, but now I allow
>>>>endgames as long as someone has a piece.  This is further modified by a
>>>>blocked-pawn term, which disallows null if most pawns are blocked.  I think.
>>>>So, I don't detect zug like some others attempt to do.
>>>>
>>>>I only use R=2, but I know others alternate between 2 and 3 depending on the
>>>>situation.
>>>>
>>>>Will
>>>
>>>What are the advantages/disadvantages of alternating between R=2/3? Does having
>>>some entries with R=3 cause problems with the hash table?
>>
>>The difference between R=2 and R=3 is marginally, however for DIEP
>>R=2 needs a lot more nodes than R=3.
>>
>>Something interesting though is what happens the last few ply.
>>
>>At R=2 you are tempted prune the last 3 ply with quiescencesearch.
>>
>>At R=3 you are doing the last 4 ply, which means that you prune
>>2 moves of your opponent.
>>
>>For some programs that don't detect much in qsearch this might be
>>a problem.
>>
>>Everyone has to figure out whether R=2 is better for him or whether
>>he can do R=3 too.
>>
>>Some alternatives is using a combination: first nullmove R=3 and
>>all nullmoves after the first one R=2.
>>
>>I am no longer doing that though. I use everywhere R=3 now.
>>Bad luck for a few positions in LCT test and bs2830 testset!
>>
>>Obviously a nullmoving program with R=3 needs 3 ply more than
>>with R=2 to find Kh2-g3!!
>>
>>I guess everyone has to figure out his own reduction based upon
>>node reduction. If R=3 gives you a time reduction of 50%, then
>>i bet it's a good idea to use R=3 instead of R=2 !
>>
>>>James
>>
>>Vincent
>
>I have seen a few cases where R=3 used more nodes than R=2 to reach a given
>depth. First iterations R=3 did better than R=2 (less nodes), but suddenly it
>chokes and on the end used even more nodes than R=3.
>
>Since that I gave up on R=3. However R=3 near the root and R=2 the rest works
>fine for me. I don't see the "choking problem".

This is the same discussion as whether bigger hashtables work better
or worse than small hashtables.

Sure the more bugs in a program the worse it might work.

Obviously R=3 gives a bigger reduction so at the bigger depths it
is not obvious to me that at smaller depths it reduces nodes so
bigtime.

It improves the branching factor for me!


>
>Regards,
>Bas Hamstra.



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