Computer Chess Club Archives


Search

Terms

Messages

Subject: Re: Theories on Tiger's success? No book learning, no anti-prog x play(?)?

Author: Ratko V Tomic

Date: 07:00:22 11/19/99

Go up one level in this thread


> * Tiger's book learning is almost nonexistent. Tiger just avoid
> repeating lost games.

How far back in the lost game does it start the avoiding? With Fritz 5.32, after
it lost few games in an opening (for reasons well beyond and unrelated to the
opening), it stopped playing a perfectly good entire opening completely. I had
to reinstall the book from the CD (since it wouldn't reset the weights properly
on the copy it had on the hard disk). And after that would give only a short
lived variety in openings (no matter what its book menu options said, it seems
to learn its own way, anyway) I had to reinstall it and make the book read-only
file to get rid of its excess in cleverness. Similar problem occured with its
forcing winning lines, where it started playing the same opening line
repeatedly, even though its wins again had nothing to do with the opening but
came much later (mostly for resons of tactical oversights).

So Fritz (or Hiarcs) learning is basically rigged to squeeze an extra point or
two in mindless comp-comp marathons against the less aggressive learners, at the
great inconvenience of its end user (but the extra few points from the
mechanical comp-comp matches give it a greater attractivenes to the potential
new customer, i.e. CB's customer philosophy appears indistinguishable from that
of a used car salesman).


For program-human play, the avoiding should not banish entire good opening just
because program lost later for unrelated reasons to a stronger or more inspired
opponent. The only thing (useful to an end user) to avoid shold be moves
producing explicitly the positions where the programs score dropped
significantly (as evaluated during the losing game, provided time setting was
not lower than the current one). Optimally, such positions to avoid could be
part of the hash tables so they can be detected during the search as early as
possible. A small subset of them need to be loaded at any one time, for
different openings or some other (more reliable) classification e.g. positions
with more than Nw or more than Nb pieces need not be loaded, or can be unloaded
if already loaded, if white has lower than Nw pieces, or black has lower than Nb
 pieces (or they can be even subdivided by piece type to minimize the memory
requirements). In any case, such long-term position memory would provide a set
of nodes evaluated typically better than what the program would do in a new
search (even with higher time/move or depth settings, since these would be found
at some depth in a new search tree).

The main advantage of such learning method for the user isn't so much that the
program will play stronger as it remembers more pre-evaluated nodes (even though
that would be one side-effect), but that the program would not waste its user's
time "thinking" for minutes about the same position it "thought" about for the
same time, perhaps yesterday, producing the same move (whatever the game outcome
might have been). That's one quite irritating thing about the programs (for
people who have something else to do besides playing against the program), and I
still haven't seen a commercial program which will do it, but without ending up
playing the same opening line over and over (i.e. the CB's 'used car salesman'
learning system).


> Tiger is unable to repeat a won or a draw game,
> except by pure luck. I admit this is maybe a mistake, I might change
> my mind in a future version.

If you add that kind of learning, it would be nice if it were separate option
from the avoidance of lost positions, since it automatically leads to narrowing
of the opening book (or rather, the non-uniform weights result in the lower
entropy/information content of the opening repertoire; the entropy is maximized
by uniform weights on all book lines).

There is no reason (other than either the salesman mentality taking over the
design or the programming laziness/incompetence taking shortcuts) to bundle
inseparably the options best for the mechanical comp-comp marathons, with those
optimal (not just in strength but also in saving user's time and being pleasant,
having variety) for play against the human end user. An option which explicitly
sets the Strongest play should be split to Strongest against humans vs Strongest
against computers. While Rebel 10 does have something of this sort (in an
unclear and somwehat overlapping indirect ways, via anti-GM vs Tiger vs
Strongest Settings vs 10b vs 10C options), that still refers to the
playing/searching style, not to the book (or rather, position) learning as
described above.




This page took 0 seconds to execute

Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700

Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.