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Subject: Re: Bean counters argument

Author: Fernando Villegas

Date: 10:48:35 11/20/99

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On November 19, 1999 at 23:21:24, Christophe Theron wrote:

>On November 19, 1999 at 18:13:31, Fernando Villegas wrote:
>
>>On November 19, 1999 at 13:23:46, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>>
>>>On November 19, 1999 at 03:08:35, Bernhard Bauer wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Do I have a defective disc or is Nimzo 7.32 a defective program in this
>>>>>>>>area? Or have I missed something?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>There is no contradiction.
>>>>>you do not lose more than few elo ratings by not knowing KBN vs K and KBB vs K
>>>>>
>>>>>Uri
>>>>
>>>>This is the typical bean counters argument: Rating points.
>>>>You do not lose more than a few rating points by not knowing this and that,
>>>>so what you get is kind of a cripple chess with some nice features like the
>>>>insufficient material feature.
>>>>I want a chess program to be able to play chess in *any* possible position.
>>>>Every thing else is poor. I don't mind about rating points in computer chess.
>>>>Kind regards
>>>>Bernhard
>>>
>>>The programs are generalists, and that is the problem.  There are some specific
>>>cases they do not handle well.  KBN vs K in particular requires an extra
>>>heuristic in order to perform well.  In a normal endgame position you will not
>>>try to force the opposing king to the corner that is the same color as the
>>>bishop, but this bit of information is extremely important in KBN vs K.
>>>
>>>So unless you program some extra help in, a program will play that ending
>>>sub-optimally.
>>>
>>>There are always going to be positions that the program doesn't understand as
>>>well as a person, since it is different from a person.
>>>
>>>You are right to demand that specific rare yet interesting cases be covered,
>>>though.
>>>
>>>This probably applies just as well in the middlegame.  Computers play their type
>>>of game very well, and this is sufficient to do well in most middlegames, but
>>>there is obviously a lot of room for improvement.
>>>
>>>bruce
>>
>>I think I have said this time and again, but here I go again: why not to develop
>>more "fragmented" programs, that is to say, not a full program supposed to do
>>well in any aspect of the game, but one with a specific module to identify what
>>is going on and then select another specific module to treat it? I presume
>>something of he sort is currently done, but I suspect that a lot more can be
>>done.  In fact, is what human beings does: we does not play chess with the same
>>package of ideas in the middle of ending, with this or that set of remaining
>>pieces. In our case is unconscious, we just change our parameters and to begin
>>with, pawns becomes a lot more important, the kind becomes ative, etc, but a
>>program could do so provided the super-module had a complete -or almost- table
>>of pattern positions to identify what is needed.
>>Cheers
>>fernando
>
>
>This is done exactly in the way you describe in many chess programs already.
>
>For example Tiger does not use the same search algorithm in the middlegame and
>in the endgame. Of course the evaluation is also totally different. And other
>programs do that also.
>
>
>    Christophe


Then take a look at what Bob said to "my" idea and continue the discussion with
him, interpares as you are in programming.
Fernando



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