Author: Ricardo Gibert
Date: 13:54:15 12/07/99
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On December 07, 1999 at 14:22:19, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On December 07, 1999 at 00:01:08, Ricardo Gibert wrote: > >>On ICC, I often see computers winning games against strong players by >>"unfriendly" means. Consider what happens when the position is dead drawn, but >>the computer player does not realize this and makes an unending series of >>aimless moves that drains the human opponent of time on his clock. It isn't any >>secret that computers have "faster reflexes". This is boring and inflates the >>apparent strength of the program. >> >>I propose that computer programs should offer/accept draws when the following >>conditions hold: >> >>1) There have been no pawn moves or captures played by >> either side over the past 10 ply played. Of course >> the 50 move rule counter is perfect for this. > >This is total nonsense. I have seen _many_ games where no pawn move or >capture was played over a 5 move (10 ply) stretch. This has _nothing_ to >do with the game called "chess". Please explain why you consider this to be total nonsense. It is clear that this is reliable indicator of whether substantive change has taken place on the chessboard. > >Crafty will offer a draw when the eval says "Drawscore" for N consecutive >moves, where N varies depending on the opponent. For GM players I believe it >is 3 consecutive moves. For IMs maybe 5. > > > > >> >>2) The evaluation has remained relatively stable over >> this period of moves. Fluctuating within a _very_ >> small range. > >Again this won't work. Some programs vary a little, and some vary a >lot... so eval change means little in this context... It is meaningful, because no pawn moves or exchanges have taken place _and_ the program has not found any way to improve its position. The combination of the above 2 conditions detect when the program is just churning its pieces around uselessly. Programs do that with blocked position draws or when they maintain seemingly favorable positions by avoiding exchanges that the EGTB indicates would produce a drawn position. Computers win a lot of these positions on time, because the human player can't move instantly like the computer can. Unfriendly chess. > > > > >> >>Notice the computer player could possibly offer/accept a draw when it is >>material up. It is also possible that the position could be winning for the >>computer, but I think that's OK, since the computer has demonstated an inability >>to find the win. When a position is a winning one, the score should degenerate >>in favor of the side that has the winning position. I know this is not perfect, >>but restricting this to blitz or bullet would >>keep the chess "friendly" and entertaining. > > >A computer demonstrates its inability to win by reaching a dead drawn position >by the 50-move rule or by repetition, or by insufficient material. A program >might try 2-3 different 'plans' before it finds one that doesn't lead to a >forced draw. > You can increase the threshold number of ply to 20 if you want. It would be adjustable. There are a lot of dead drawn positions that the computer does not detect. What I propose is an attempt to remedy that. Please note that I only propose this for those contexts where it is desirable to keep the chess friendly and not when there is something substantive at stake like in a tournament. I thought I made this clear. What do you have that is better in such cases? It doesn't seem like you really read my post carefully. It is an adjustable feature that can also simply be turned off and should be when playing another computer or in a tournament. What could be wrong with that? > > > > >> >>A second proposal I have to make the chess more "friendly", is to keep the >>computer from forcing wins from sheer speed of play. Force the computer to >>consume a little more time per move so that it does not win on time just by >>virtue of its inhuman speed. You can have this trigger a draw offer when it gets >>low on time, _then_ if it is refused, you can have the computer take the gloves >>off and play at full speed. > >This is already done. It is called "playing with increment". If a human >chooses a zero increment game, then he has to play to win or draw within >that time limit. That is _his_/_her_ choice, and has nothing to do with the >computer. I see no reason for the computer to play within that clock time >limit but let the human off if he gets low on time. Read my response to this that I wrote to Kappler's post in this thread. > >If the human insists on playing zero-inc games, then as the saying goes "he who >lives by the sword, dies by the sword." > > > > > > >> >>The "drawback" to all this is that computers employing the above 2 ideas will >>wind up with lower ratings, but I think those ratings will then reflect their >>strength due to chessic reasons rather than non-chessic ones. Computer chess >>programers egos will take a hit when their programs ICC rating goes down, but >>they will gain in the long run by virtue of having produced a more enjoyable >>program that is bound to thereby be more popular. In a serious competitive >>setting or against another computer, these "features" should be turned off of >>course. Perhaps this could be tested on ICC with unrated games to see what the >>impact would be on playing strength. > > >I have been playing chess for a _long_ time. I have won and lost games on >time. I consider the 'clock' to be a "chessic reason" for losing a game. It >is part of the game, included in the rules... I have also played chess for a _long_ time and it has always been considered bad etiquette to try to win dead drawn positions on time in skittles. Maybe you play in a "tougher" neighborhood than I do.
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