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Subject: Re: How many plies in chess game before hash table have some sense?

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 15:49:34 12/08/99

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On December 08, 1999 at 17:22:13, William Bryant wrote:

>
>>Correct.  Here is the mother of all positions to test hashing on, from
>>Fine's "Basic Chess Endings" position number 70:
>>
>>
>>/k/3p/p2P1p/P2P1P///K/ w
>>
>>if hashing works, you will get to 30 plies instantly.  If it doesn't, you
>>won't get to 15.
>>
>>
>>>
>
>_instantly_?
>
>As I have "improved" my move ordering my responst to this test hash slowed
>somewhat.  I get to 18 plies "instantly" (less than 1 second"),
>23 plies by 33 seconds, 24 plies by 55 seconds, and find the answer at a depth
>of 24 plies in 125 seconds.  It takes me nine minutes to actually get to 30
>plies.
>
>My hash table is a simple one, not a always replace/never replace scheme you
>use.  Does this double buffered system make that much difference.
>
>William
>wbryant@ix.netcom.com


Here is the position from my PII/400 Sony notebook, for reference:  "instantly"
can be relative of course...

White(1): in fine.70
White(1): setboard /k/3p/p2P1p/P2P1P///K/ w

       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    8  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    7  | *K|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    6  |   |   |   | *P|   |   |   |   |
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    5  | *P|   |   | P |   | *P|   |   |
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    4  | P |   |   | P |   | P |   |   |
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    3  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    2  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    1  | K |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
         a   b   c   d   e   f   g   h


              clearing hash tables
              time surplus   0.00  time limit 16:39 (16:39)
         nss  depth   time  score   variation (1)
               24     0.46   3.59   1. Kb1 Kb8 2. Kc2 Kc8 3. Kd2 Kc7 4.
                                    Kd3 Kb6 5. Ke3 Kc7 6. Kf3 Kd7 7. Kg3
                                    Ke7 8. Kh4 Kf6 9. Kh5 Ke7 10. Kg6 Kd7
                                    11. Kxf5 Ke7 12. Ke4 <HT>
               24->   0.47   3.59   1. Kb1 Kb8 2. Kc2 Kc8 3. Kd2 Kc7 4.
                                    Kd3 Kb6 5. Ke3 Kc7 6. Kf3 Kd7 7. Kg3
                                    Ke7 8. Kh4 Kf6 9. Kh5 Ke7 10. Kg6 Kd7
                                    11. Kxf5 Ke7 12. Ke4 <HT>
               25     0.66     --   1. Kb1
               25     0.71   3.86   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Kb7 3. Kc3 Kb6 4.
                                    Kc4 Ka6 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    <HT>
               25->   0.72   3.86   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Kb7 3. Kc3 Kb6 4.
                                    Kc4 Ka6 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    <HT>
               26     0.79   3.86   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Kb7 3. Kc3 Kb6 4.
                                    Kc4 Ka6 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    <HT>
               26->   0.80   3.86   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Kb7 3. Kc3 Kb6 4.
                                    Kc4 Ka6 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    <HT>
               27     1.09   3.86   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Kb7 3. Kc3 Kb6 4.
                                    Kc4 Ka6 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    <HT>
               27->   1.10   3.86   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Kb7 3. Kc3 Kb6 4.
                                    Kc4 Ka6 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    <HT>
               28     1.21   3.86   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Kb7 3. Kc3 Kb6 4.
                                    Kc4 Ka6 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Ke7
                                    11. Kg6 Kd7 12. Kxf5 Ke7 13. Kg6 Kd7
                                    14. f5 Ke7
               28->   1.22   3.86   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Kb7 3. Kc3 Kb6 4.
                                    Kc4 Ka6 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Ke7
                                    11. Kg6 Kd7 12. Kxf5 Ke7 13. Kg6 Kd7
                                    14. f5 Ke7
               29     1.65   4.04   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Kb7 3. Kc3 Kb6 4.
                                    Kc4 Ka6 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Ke7
                                    11. Kg6 Ke8 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg5 Kg7
                                    14. f5 Kf7 15. Kf4
               29->   1.66   4.04   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Kb7 3. Kc3 Kb6 4.
                                    Kc4 Ka6 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Ke7
                                    11. Kg6 Ke8 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg5 Kg7
                                    14. f5 Kf7 15. Kf4
               30     1.87   4.04   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Kb7 3. Kc3 Kb6 4.
                                    Kc4 Ka6 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Ke7
                                    11. Kg6 Ke8 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg5 Ke7
                                    14. f5 Ke8 15. Kf6 Kd7
               30->   1.88   4.04   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Kb7 3. Kc3 Kb6 4.
                                    Kc4 Ka6 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Ke7
                                    11. Kg6 Ke8 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg5 Ke7
                                    14. f5 Ke8 15. Kf6 Kd7
               31     2.62     ++   1. Kb1!!
               31     3.23   4.99   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Ka7 3. Kb3 Kb7 4.
                                    Kc3 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Kd8 9. Kh4 Kd7 10. Kg5 Ke7
                                    11. Kxf5 Kf7 12. Kg5 Kg7 13. f5 Kf7
                                    14. f6 Kf8 15. Kg6 Kg8 16. Kf5
               31->   3.24   4.99   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Ka7 3. Kb3 Kb7 4.
                                    Kc3 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Kd8 9. Kh4 Kd7 10. Kg5 Ke7
                                    11. Kxf5 Kf7 12. Kg5 Kg7 13. f5 Kf7
                                    14. f6 Kf8 15. Kg6 Kg8 16. Kf5
               32     4.42   4.89   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Ka7 3. Kb3 Kb7 4.
                                    Kc3 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Kd8 9. Kh4 Kd7 10. Kg5 Ke7
                                    11. Kxf5 Kf7 12. Kg4 Kf6 13. f5 Ke7
                                    14. Kg5 Kd7 15. f6 Ke8 16. Kg6 Kd7
               32->   4.43   4.89   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Ka7 3. Kb3 Kb7 4.
                                    Kc3 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Kd8 9. Kh4 Kd7 10. Kg5 Ke7
                                    11. Kxf5 Kf7 12. Kg4 Kf6 13. f5 Ke7
                                    14. Kg5 Kd7 15. f6 Ke8 16. Kg6 Kd7
               33     6.09   4.89   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Ka7 3. Kb3 Kb7 4.
                                    Kc3 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Kf7
                                    11. Kg5 Kg7 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg4 <HT>
               33->   6.10   4.89   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Ka7 3. Kb3 Kb7 4.
                                    Kc3 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Kf7
                                    11. Kg5 Kg7 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg4 <HT>
               34     7.43   4.89   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Ka7 3. Kb3 Kb7 4.
                                    Kc3 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Kf7
                                    11. Kg5 Kg7 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg4 <HT>
               34->   7.44   4.89   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Ka7 3. Kb3 Kb7 4.
                                    Kc3 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Kf7
                                    11. Kg5 Kg7 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg4 <HT>
               35    10.10   4.89   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Ka7 3. Kb3 Kb7 4.
                                    Kc3 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Kf7
                                    11. Kg5 Kg7 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg4 <HT>
               35->  10.11   4.89   1. Kb1 Ka8 2. Kb2 Ka7 3. Kb3 Kb7 4.
                                    Kc3 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Kf7
                                    11. Kg5 Kg7 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg4 <HT>





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