Author: Michael Neish
Date: 21:50:01 01/11/00
Go up one level in this thread
> These moderators did not comment about the uncivility of the forum when others
>insulted me, but when I said something in my defense, then all of a sudden, I
>was the one who was being obnoxious. If this is what a civilized forum stands
>for, selective persecution, then by all means, delete me.
Everyone has a right to give his or her opinion, I hope. But at the
same time, if one's opinion is phrased in such a way that it may
annoy readers, you have to be prepared to face the onslaught. If
one has radical or unpopular views it might help to express them
in a tactful manner and at least give the impression of being
open to a different point of view. This is especially important
in a medium such as this one where you can never know whether the
other person's joking, or angry or whatever. You know what I mean.
Being attacked for making inflammatory comments and then claiming
naivety ("I was just expressing my opinion, why is everyone
attacking me?") is unfair to say the least (the word "childish"
comes to mind but I'll stick to "unfair" because I don't want
to inflame matters.). I read over the thread in question,
and initial reactions to Michelena's comments ran along the lines
of "are you kidding me?". There were some honest attempts to rebut
his arguments, but tempers flared when he seemed to disregard what
people were saying and just restated his initial assertion. By
saying that no non-GM could defeat a computer, the insinuation was
that people who made such claims were liars. Under these circum-
stances one should easily have seen that annoyed responses would be
provoked.
Here's a copy-and-paste job of the original posts in the thread.
It goes on and on, but the essence is here. I leave it to others
to decide which (if any) of the posts are inflammatory.
Original Post (Alexandre Come)
--------------
From: Sune Larsson
E-mail: astro.chess@mail.bip.net
Message Number: 82625
Date: December 15, 1999 at 13:32:39
In Reply to: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
Message ID: 82619
Posted by: CÙme
At: Alex.come@wanadoo.fr
On: December 15, 1999 at 13:07:43
On December 15, 1999 at 13:07:43, CÙme wrote:
>
>Hello everybody,
>Here is a nice blitz game that I have win against Hiarcs 7.32!
>
>[Event "Niveau=Blitz:10'. "]
>[Site "CÙme"]
>[Date "1999.12.15"]
>[Round "?"]
>[White "Come Alexandre"]
>[Black "Hiarcs 7.32"]
>[Result "1-0"]
> [game in PDF included]
>34. Rxg8+ 1-0
>
>Best Regards
>Alexandre CÙme
By now you sure have proved your point! That Chessprogs are weak - in coping
with Stonewall-setups. As we know...
------------------------------------------------
Msg 2 (Robert Michelena)
Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
From: robert michelena
E-mail: josfern80@hotmail.com
Message Number: 82652
Date: December 15, 1999 at 16:15:01
In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
Message ID: 82625
Posted by: Sune Larsson
At: astro.chess@mail.bip.net
On: December 15, 1999 at 13:32:39
what program where you using to beat hiarcs ?
--------------------------------------------------
Msg 3 (Alexandre Come)
Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
From: CÙme
E-mail: Alex.come@wanadoo.fr
Message Number: 82653
Date: December 15, 1999 at 16:20:18
In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
Message ID: 82652
Posted by: robert michelena
At: josfern80@hotmail.com
On: December 15, 1999 at 16:15:01
On December 15, 1999 at 16:15:01, robert michelena wrote:
>what program where you using to beat hiarcs ?
No programs !!!
This is me that is beaten hiarcs!
Best Regards
Alexandre CÙme
--------------------------------------------------
Msg 4 (Alexandre Come)
Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
From: CÙme
E-mail: Alex.come@wanadoo.fr
Message Number: 82653
Date: December 15, 1999 at 16:20:18
In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
Message ID: 82652
Posted by: robert michelena
At: josfern80@hotmail.com
On: December 15, 1999 at 16:15:01
On December 15, 1999 at 16:15:01, robert michelena wrote:
>what program where you using to beat hiarcs ?
No programs !!!
This is me that is beaten hiarcs!
Best Regards
Alexandre CÙme
--------------------------------------------------
Msg 5 (Robert Michelena)
Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! no, you don't understand me
From: robert michelena
E-mail: josfern80@hotmail.com
Message Number: 82662
Date: December 15, 1999 at 17:19:22
In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
Message ID: 82653
Posted by: CÙme
At: Alex.come@wanadoo.fr
On: December 15, 1999 at 16:20:18
What I mean is, what chessplaying program did you use to beat hiarcs?
--------------------------------------------------
Msg 6 (Marc Plum)
Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! no, you don't understand me
From: Marc Plum
E-mail: marcplum@sprintmail.com
Message Number: 82682
Date: December 15, 1999 at 19:07:58
In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! no, you don't understand me
Message ID: 82662
Posted by: robert michelena
At: josfern80@hotmail.com
On: December 15, 1999 at 17:19:22
I'm rather puzzled as to why you make this insinuation. The game isn't all that
great, but it seems typical of the way that computers sometimes lose to humans.
Or were you just kidding?
Marc
On December 15, 1999 at 17:19:22, robert michelena wrote:
>What I mean is, what chessplaying program did you use to beat hiarcs?
--------------------------------------------------
Msg 7 (Robert Michelena)
Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! oh no,not this thread again!
From: robert michelena
E-mail: josfern80@hotmail.com
Message Number: 82698
Date: December 15, 1999 at 20:25:04
In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! no, you don't understand me
Message ID: 82682
Posted by: Marc Plum
At: marcplum@sprintmail.com
On: December 15, 1999 at 19:07:58
Oh no, not again!! Let's not start the same issue. Unless you are a certified
grandmaster, please don't insult our intelligence by suggesting that you can
"occasionally" beat a top commercial program.
--------------------------------------------------
Msg 8 (Imran Hendley)
Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! oh no,not this thread again!
From: Imran Hendley
E-mail: hendley@mediaone.net
Message Number: 82707
Date: December 15, 1999 at 21:44:51
In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! oh no,not this thread again!
Message ID: 82698
Posted by: robert michelena
At: josfern80@hotmail.com
On: December 15, 1999 at 20:25:04
On December 15, 1999 at 20:25:04, robert michelena wrote:
I think it is very rude of you to insult Mr. CÙme like this. He spends a lot of
effort posting his games for us too see, and I personally learn a lot from them.
Many people can beat the top commercial programs, they are not perfect. Mr.
CÙme's games are prime examples of some of their weaknesses. I think you should
try to learn from them instead of jumping to the conclusion that he must have
cheated.
>Oh no, not again!! Let's not start the same issue. Unless you are a certified
>grandmaster, please don't insult our intelligence by suggesting that you can
>"occasionally" beat a top commercial program.
--------------------------------------------------
Msg 9 (Robert Michelena)
Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! A fairy tale in the making
From: robert michelena
E-mail: josfern80@hotmail.com
Message Number: 82711
Date: December 15, 1999 at 21:55:54
In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! oh no,not this thread again!
Message ID: 82707
Posted by: Imran Hendley
At: hendley@mediaone.net
On: December 15, 1999 at 21:44:51
If the shoe fits, wear it.
I stand by my comment, and by now, my well known view. To suggest that anybody
who is not a grandmaster can beat a commercial program is to insult our common
sense. These programs can search faster and deeper then any human. They can
and often do defeat top grandmasters.
Under the circumstances, to claim that you can defeat (unless 'you' happened to
be a grandmaster)a commercial program at its strongest setting now only insults
our intelligence and common sense, but, more importantly, reflects on 'you'.
-------------------------------------------------
Msg 10 (Imran Hendley)
Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! A fairy tale in the making
From: Imran Hendley
E-mail: hendley@mediaone.net
Message Number: 82713
Date: December 15, 1999 at 22:11:22
In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! A fairy tale in the making
Message ID: 82711
Posted by: robert michelena
At: josfern80@hotmail.com
On: December 15, 1999 at 21:55:54
On December 15, 1999 at 21:55:54, robert michelena wrote:
I don't want to carry this argument out forever, but all I'm saying is that
obviously Mr. CÙme does not win every game he plays against the computer, but he
does win some, and those are the ones he posts. Any strong player can beat a
program occassionly, whether it be one out of ten, or one out of five hundred,
it's going to happen. I am not a very good player, but I myself do win the
occassional game again Chessmaster on my p200, i would say about one out of
thirty. Anyway, don't think that computers are invincible, they most certainly
are not. A good player can break them open every now and then.
>If the shoe fits, wear it.
>
>I stand by my comment, and by now, my well known view. To suggest that anybody
>who is not a grandmaster can beat a commercial program is to insult our common
>sense. These programs can search faster and deeper then any human. They can
>and often do defeat top grandmasters.
>
>Under the circumstances, to claim that you can defeat (unless 'you' happened to
>be a grandmaster)a commercial program at its strongest setting now only insults
>our intelligence and common sense, but, more importantly, reflects on 'you'.
--------------------------------------------------
...... and another few thousand messages follow :)
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