Author: Chessfun
Date: 22:20:44 01/11/00
Go up one level in this thread
On January 12, 2000 at 00:50:01, Michael Neish wrote:
>
>> These moderators did not comment about the uncivility of the forum when others
>>insulted me, but when I said something in my defense, then all of a sudden, I
>>was the one who was being obnoxious. If this is what a civilized forum stands
>>for, selective persecution, then by all means, delete me.
>
>Everyone has a right to give his or her opinion, I hope. But at the
>same time, if one's opinion is phrased in such a way that it may
>annoy readers, you have to be prepared to face the onslaught. If
>one has radical or unpopular views it might help to express them
>in a tactful manner and at least give the impression of being
>open to a different point of view. This is especially important
>in a medium such as this one where you can never know whether the
>other person's joking, or angry or whatever. You know what I mean.
>
>Being attacked for making inflammatory comments and then claiming
>naivety ("I was just expressing my opinion, why is everyone
>attacking me?") is unfair to say the least (the word "childish"
>comes to mind but I'll stick to "unfair" because I don't want
>to inflame matters.). I read over the thread in question,
>and initial reactions to Michelena's comments ran along the lines
>of "are you kidding me?". There were some honest attempts to rebut
>his arguments, but tempers flared when he seemed to disregard what
>people were saying and just restated his initial assertion. By
>saying that no non-GM could defeat a computer, the insinuation was
>that people who made such claims were liars. Under these circum-
>stances one should easily have seen that annoyed responses would be
>provoked.
>
>Here's a copy-and-paste job of the original posts in the thread.
>It goes on and on, but the essence is here. I leave it to others
>to decide which (if any) of the posts are inflammatory.
>
A good post but clearly message (5) by Michelena actually
accuses Come of cheating it is not an insinuation as it
was clarified in the earlier message that he himself had
beaten the computer.
Therefore right from the start he was making deflamatory
remarks. He instead could have posted his own message asking
the question is it possible for Non Masters to beat commercial
programs, but no, instead he decided to smirk Come.
Come, to his great credit did not blast back.
Whatever Michelena got from there he deserved since after
making his statement he offered nothing to support what
he had to say. Further adding more defamation to the header
with "a fairy tale in the making".
Thanks.
>Original Post (Alexandre Come)
>--------------
2>
>From: Sune Larsson
>E-mail: astro.chess@mail.bip.net
>Message Number: 82625
>Date: December 15, 1999 at 13:32:39
> In Reply to: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
> Message ID: 82619
> Posted by: CÙme
> At: Alex.come@wanadoo.fr
> On: December 15, 1999 at 13:07:43
>
>On December 15, 1999 at 13:07:43, CÙme wrote:
>
>>
>>Hello everybody,
>>Here is a nice blitz game that I have win against Hiarcs 7.32!
>>
>>[Event "Niveau=Blitz:10'. "]
>>[Site "CÙme"]
>>[Date "1999.12.15"]
>>[Round "?"]
>>[White "Come Alexandre"]
>>[Black "Hiarcs 7.32"]
>>[Result "1-0"]
>
>> [game in PDF included]
>
>>34. Rxg8+ 1-0
>>
>>Best Regards
>>Alexandre CÙme
>
> By now you sure have proved your point! That Chessprogs are weak - in coping
> with Stonewall-setups. As we know...
>
>------------------------------------------------
>
>Msg 2 (Robert Michelena)
>
>Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
>From: robert michelena
>E-mail: josfern80@hotmail.com
>Message Number: 82652
>Date: December 15, 1999 at 16:15:01
> In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
> Message ID: 82625
> Posted by: Sune Larsson
> At: astro.chess@mail.bip.net
> On: December 15, 1999 at 13:32:39
>
>what program where you using to beat hiarcs ?
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>Msg 3 (Alexandre Come)
>
>Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
>From: CÙme
>E-mail: Alex.come@wanadoo.fr
>Message Number: 82653
>Date: December 15, 1999 at 16:20:18
> In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
> Message ID: 82652
> Posted by: robert michelena
> At: josfern80@hotmail.com
> On: December 15, 1999 at 16:15:01
>
>On December 15, 1999 at 16:15:01, robert michelena wrote:
>
>>what program where you using to beat hiarcs ?
>
>No programs !!!
>This is me that is beaten hiarcs!
>Best Regards
>Alexandre CÙme
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>Msg 4 (Alexandre Come)
>
>Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
>From: CÙme
>E-mail: Alex.come@wanadoo.fr
>Message Number: 82653
>Date: December 15, 1999 at 16:20:18
> In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
> Message ID: 82652
> Posted by: robert michelena
> At: josfern80@hotmail.com
> On: December 15, 1999 at 16:15:01
>
>On December 15, 1999 at 16:15:01, robert michelena wrote:
>
>>what program where you using to beat hiarcs ?
>
>No programs !!!
>This is me that is beaten hiarcs!
>Best Regards
>Alexandre CÙme
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>Msg 5 (Robert Michelena)
>
>Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! no, you don't understand me
>From: robert michelena
>E-mail: josfern80@hotmail.com
>Message Number: 82662
>Date: December 15, 1999 at 17:19:22
> In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32!
> Message ID: 82653
> Posted by: CÙme
> At: Alex.come@wanadoo.fr
> On: December 15, 1999 at 16:20:18
>
>What I mean is, what chessplaying program did you use to beat hiarcs?
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>Msg 6 (Marc Plum)
>
>Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! no, you don't understand me
>From: Marc Plum
>E-mail: marcplum@sprintmail.com
>Message Number: 82682
>Date: December 15, 1999 at 19:07:58
> In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! no, you don't understand me
> Message ID: 82662
> Posted by: robert michelena
> At: josfern80@hotmail.com
> On: December 15, 1999 at 17:19:22
>
>I'm rather puzzled as to why you make this insinuation. The game isn't all that
>great, but it seems typical of the way that computers sometimes lose to humans.
>Or were you just kidding?
>
>Marc
>
>On December 15, 1999 at 17:19:22, robert michelena wrote:
>
>>What I mean is, what chessplaying program did you use to beat hiarcs?
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>Msg 7 (Robert Michelena)
>
>Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! oh no,not this thread again!
>From: robert michelena
>E-mail: josfern80@hotmail.com
>Message Number: 82698
>Date: December 15, 1999 at 20:25:04
> In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! no, you don't understand me
> Message ID: 82682
> Posted by: Marc Plum
> At: marcplum@sprintmail.com
2> On: December 15, 1999 at 19:07:58
>
>Oh no, not again!! Let's not start the same issue. Unless you are a certified
>grandmaster, please don't insult our intelligence by suggesting that you can
>"occasionally" beat a top commercial program.
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>Msg 8 (Imran Hendley)
>
>Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! oh no,not this thread again!
>From: Imran Hendley
>E-mail: hendley@mediaone.net
>Message Number: 82707
>Date: December 15, 1999 at 21:44:51
> In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! oh no,not this thread again!
> Message ID: 82698
> Posted by: robert michelena
> At: josfern80@hotmail.com
> On: December 15, 1999 at 20:25:04
>
>On December 15, 1999 at 20:25:04, robert michelena wrote:
>
>I think it is very rude of you to insult Mr. CÙme like this. He spends a lot of
>effort posting his games for us too see, and I personally learn a lot from them.
>Many people can beat the top commercial programs, they are not perfect. Mr.
>CÙme's games are prime examples of some of their weaknesses. I think you should
>try to learn from them instead of jumping to the conclusion that he must have
>cheated.
>
>>Oh no, not again!! Let's not start the same issue. Unless you are a certified
>>grandmaster, please don't insult our intelligence by suggesting that you can
>>"occasionally" beat a top commercial program.
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>Msg 9 (Robert Michelena)
>
>Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! A fairy tale in the making
>From: robert michelena
>E-mail: josfern80@hotmail.com
>Message Number: 82711
>Date: December 15, 1999 at 21:55:54
> In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! oh no,not this thread again!
> Message ID: 82707
> Posted by: Imran Hendley
> At: hendley@mediaone.net
> On: December 15, 1999 at 21:44:51
>
>If the shoe fits, wear it.
>
>I stand by my comment, and by now, my well known view. To suggest that anybody
>who is not a grandmaster can beat a commercial program is to insult our common
>sense. These programs can search faster and deeper then any human. They can
>and often do defeat top grandmasters.
>
>Under the circumstances, to claim that you can defeat (unless 'you' happened to
>be a grandmaster)a commercial program at its strongest setting now only insults
>our intelligence and common sense, but, more importantly, reflects on 'you'.
>
>-------------------------------------------------
>
>Msg 10 (Imran Hendley)
>
>Subject: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! A fairy tale in the making
>From: Imran Hendley
>E-mail: hendley@mediaone.net
>Message Number: 82713
>Date: December 15, 1999 at 22:11:22
> In Reply to: Re: A nice win against Hiarcs 7.32! A fairy tale in the making
> Message ID: 82711
> Posted by: robert michelena
> At: josfern80@hotmail.com
> On: December 15, 1999 at 21:55:54
>
>On December 15, 1999 at 21:55:54, robert michelena wrote:
>
>I don't want to carry this argument out forever, but all I'm saying is that
>obviously Mr. CÙme does not win every game he plays against the computer, but he
>does win some, and those are the ones he posts. Any strong player can beat a
>program occassionly, whether it be one out of ten, or one out of five hundred,
>it's going to happen. I am not a very good player, but I myself do win the
>occassional game again Chessmaster on my p200, i would say about one out of
>thirty. Anyway, don't think that computers are invincible, they most certainly
>are not. A good player can break them open every now and then.
>
>>If the shoe fits, wear it.
>>
>>I stand by my comment, and by now, my well known view. To suggest that anybody
>>who is not a grandmaster can beat a commercial program is to insult our common
>>sense. These programs can search faster and deeper then any human. They can
>>and often do defeat top grandmasters.
>>
>>Under the circumstances, to claim that you can defeat (unless 'you' happened to
>>be a grandmaster)a commercial program at its strongest setting now only insults
>>our intelligence and common sense, but, more importantly, reflects on 'you'.
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>...... and another few thousand messages follow :)
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