Author: Lex Loep
Date: 13:01:50 01/18/00
Go up one level in this thread
On January 18, 2000 at 14:35:09, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On January 18, 2000 at 13:16:23, Lex Loep wrote: > >>On January 18, 2000 at 10:00:55, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On January 18, 2000 at 05:18:44, Lex Loep wrote: >>> >>>>On January 18, 2000 at 01:31:12, Tina Long wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 17, 2000 at 14:26:12, Lex Loep wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On January 17, 2000 at 12:56:48, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On January 17, 2000 at 10:24:05, Ernst Walet wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On January 17, 2000 at 10:12:14, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Someone just pointed out something that I wanted to get some confirmation on >>>>>>>>>about this interface. Based on what I saw, it seems that this interface is >>>>>>>>>breaking at least two things in "Crafty" if it is run under chess partner: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>(1) When sending a move to the engine, they first seem to send an "undo" >>>>>>>>>followed by a "force" followed by the move, followed by "move". This simply >>>>>>>>>tears up thinking on the opponent's time. Because the undo/force commands >>>>>>>>>terminate the ponder search in crafty instantly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>(2) This also totally breaks my book learning, since it is done every move and >>>>>>>>>crafty never realizes that it is 10 moves out of book, since the position keeps >>>>>>>>>getting reset. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>If this is true, it is just like the original version of the ChessBase >>>>>>>>>interface, and means engine vs engine or engine vs operator games are no >>>>>>>>>good, at least for the engines that are _really_ winboard compatible. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Can anyone confirm this if you have chesspartner 4.2? IE play a few games >>>>>>>>>using Crafty as one engine (assuming it supports engine vs engine games) or >>>>>>>>>else play a few moves manually vs crafty in this interface, making sure that >>>>>>>>>it gets out of book. Then send me the log.nnn file. We don't need a bunch of >>>>>>>>>tournament results from this interface it if is really behaving like this, as >>>>>>>>>the games are meaningless... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I think I know who told you, as he told me as well. I tested it with the >>>>>>>>Rebel-Tiger beta and can confirm this happening, alas. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Ernst-J. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If this is true, (a) it is horrible programming and (b) means no matches played >>>>>>>under chesspartner are worth anything at all. That "trick" wrecks everything I >>>>>>>do for sure. I assume it is not helpful to others. But in any case, in such >>>>>>>a match, crafty plays without pondering, will _definitely_ clear the hash >>>>>>>frequently, and can't learn at all. >>>>>> >>>>>>It is true, this 'trick' was necessary to get the GUI features like movelist >>>>>>navigation, variations, game analysis etc. working kind of reliable. >>>>>>(a) It is not horrible programming, it works the way it was intended, I just >>>>>>did not realize it would break crafty. >>>>>>Problem is the winboard interface was never intended as a computer interface >>>>>>and has it's short comings, not to mention the variations amongst engines. >>>>>>Anyway, the winboard adapter is being worked on and this problem will be >>>>>>fixed soon. >>>>>> >>>>>>Lex >>>>>Hi Lex et. al. >>>>> >>>>>I sort of understand this thread & need a little clarification. >>>>>When My Chess Tiger program arrives: >>>>> >>>>>True or False? >>>>> >>>>>1) Tiger will play as it should with ponder (& learning?), in ordinary games >>>>>and Engine v Engine Games. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Absolutely ! >>>> >>>> >>>>>2) Other Winboard Engines will play ok, but not have ponder on opponents time, >>>>>or learning. So I can use them for playing, but not valid engine-engine >>>>>competition. >>>> >>>>Not al winboard engines are equal, on some ponder may on some it may not work. >>>>Playing in general would be ok. >>>> >>> >>> >>>I don't believe any will work correctly. The "engines-intf.txt" document >>>explains exactly how an engine should behave when it sees a "force" and >>>other commands. I don't even see how Tiger can ponder assuming you use this >>>approach to the interface... To send a move to _any_ winboard engine, just >>>send the move by itself. No force. No back. No "move" command. >>> >> >>Tiger is not a winboard engine ! It works perfect in the CP GUI, with pondering, >>learning, analyse game, analyse current position as you move through the game, >>etc. >> >>Winboard is ok, as long as all you do is move forward one move at a time. >> >>Lex > >winboard works perfectly moving backward and forward. Just crank up crafty, >click "analyze game" and drag pieces around... use the < to back up a single >move, or << to back up to the beginning of the game. Crafty will happily follow >you, providing analysis as you go. > I have tried this function with winboard 4.0.0 + GNU chess, Got a message analyse mode not supported. I could move back and forward, but even in a 2 minutes test it alread got stuck, e.g. it refuses to move forward. Inserting variations; I could not find it. Display of whole move list with option to click on any move; not found. I assume this works better using crafty as engine, but my aim to make a winboard adapter that works most of the time. > >Using this 'force/move/go' kludge is not good however... for reasons that it >breaks every winboard engine that implements the winboard protocol properly. > I am thinking on a solution, will post it when ready. Lex > > > >> >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>3) Rebel-Windows Engine (when available) will play as it should like Tiger >>>>>does. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Absolutely. >>>> >>>> >>>>>4) There will be a free patch correcting 2 available for download sometime >>>>>soon. >>>>> >>>> >>>>ChessPartner is a evolving product, there are regular free updates. Keep an >>>>eye on our website or subscribe to our mailing list. >>>>http://www.lokasoft.nl/uk/downloads.htm >>>> >>>>Lex >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Thank you, >>>>>Tina Long
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