Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 11:01:22 02/02/00
Go up one level in this thread
On February 02, 2000 at 03:47:48, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On February 01, 2000 at 23:49:04, Eugene Nalimov wrote: > >>On February 01, 2000 at 20:23:36, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>>On February 01, 2000 at 13:40:59, Eugene Nalimov wrote: >>> >>>>In his lecture at MS Murray Campbell said several words about Nxe6. It was added >>>>to DB opening book by GM Benjamin after he found that DB understands position >>>>after that move. Unfortunately, I don't remember exact words - either "DB liked >>>>the position after Nxe6", or "DB would like to play Nxe6 even by itself". >>> >>>Nah back in 1997 already there were basically only wins with Nxe6 lines, >>>except a fritz3 game i think or something, >>>so it was considered bad and all automatic generated books have Nxe6 as >>>only playable move there. That's still the case... >>>...knowing deep blue always used a big automatic generated book (info >>>from Bob this is at least) i doubt whether they needed Benjamin for that. >>> >>>Deep Blue would not have played Nxe6. Score before is positive for white >>>above 0.20, after Nxe6 it is under -0.20 for white. >> >>I don't see why. For example, DB can have highly asymmetric king safety code >>(and please, don't waive your hands in the air without real facts). > >I remember someone telling the tale of Deep Blue that it had already >major scores here. Nah, it's hardly approaching zero there. Last score >we see is zero. Next moves it rises slightly (still not near root score >before Nxe6). > >My DIEP is after Nxe6 already positive for white there, so certainly >not doing bad. After Bg6 deep blue still sees nothing winning for white, >despite the comment of Seirawan: "Deep Blue's operator, Joe Hoane, >was so nervous at this point - deep blue's evaluation was strongly in >its favour - he shakily started playing 10.Bg6, an illegal move. Another >advantage for the computer is that they are not bound by the touch of their >operators!" > >Another typical case of deep blue fairy tales by IBM. Deep Blue didn't >have huge scores there. In fact much lower scores than my program >has. I only remember someone saying that on Bf4 DB's score was 'up'. Looking at the log file, after playing Bf4 the score is climbing quickly. > >Only at move 17 after 16..Bc6? deep blue gets more positive and goes >over a pawn. At that point DIEP says +2.33 already at 11 ply and more. > >>Eugene > >>>First 13 plies to my surprise diep doesn't play Nxe6 either, though >>>score is just within hundreds of not playing it i saw some sooner this day. >>> >>>> >>>>Eugene >>>> >>>>On February 01, 2000 at 08:48:31, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>> >>>>>Hello, >>>>> >>>>>For years i've been wondering why Kasparov played h6?? in the last >>>>>game against deep blue. It is for sure that Kasparov knew that h6?? was >>>>>a bad line after Nxe6! >>>>> >>>>>Kasparov has said several things about this game, all crap what he says >>>>>in my eyes. Latest explanation of him i heart being said on the internet >>>>>was that Kasparov with his excellent memory and as a professional and >>>>>young player had forgotten it and hastely played h6 thinking it would be >>>>>transposition anyway. >>>>> >>>>>Now i found that already very unlikely. See here my big surprises when >>>>>checkingout the log files of Deep Blue. >>>>> >>>>>I figured out that Deep Blue had thought already about moves before this! >>>>>Even though some moves were from book, the moves Nxe4 and Bd3 especially >>>>>there deep blue lost like 6 minutes of time somehow. Kasparov must have >>>>>thought deep blue was out of book! >>>>> >>>>>Some moves that were made quickly by deep blue Kasparov must have thought >>>>>there that they were predicted correctly by the computer, which was in fact >>>>>true. the move e6 was in fact predicted correctly. >>>>> >>>>>Now first we can clearly deny that kasparov hastely played h6 by accident. >>>>>The log file shows clearly that kasparov has thought nearly 93 seconds about >>>>>making h6. >>>>> >>>>>Now for the average player 93 seconds in opening might mean he just drank >>>>>a bit of his tea, but Kasparov who plays theorem always within a second, >>>>>has given this position over a minute of thought. >>>>> >>>>>That can mean only one thing! >>>>> >>>>>Kasparov OBVIOUSLY knew both lines. He KNEW h6 was bad. He KNEW Bd6 was good. >>>>> >>>>>He MIGHT have considered deep blue out of book. It is very unlikely that >>>>>deep blue would have played Nxe6. The score is -0.20 after the sacrafice >>>>>and before that it is about +0.20, so over 0.40 pawn difference between Nxe6. >>>>> >>>>>Of course Nxe6 was in book. Log file clearly show that. >>>>> >>>>>Kasparov made Qe7 directly. Within 20 seconds. If Kasparov had forgotten >>>>>the Nxe6 line he would have been in shock for at least quite some time. >>>>> >>>>>Kasparov was not. So kasparov WILLINGLY risked the Nxe6 line. He very likely >>>>>must have thought in that 1 and a half minute before deciding to move h6 >>>>>about that he already had a chance that deep blue would NOT capture at e6, >>>>>after which black is fine. If deep blue WOULD capture, nah then kasparov was >>>>>a piece up, like in previous games deep blue might simply allow queen exchange >>>>>after which kasparov was a piece up and would win chanceless. >>>>> >>>>>Let's not call Kasparov too many words, but he sure was arrogant underestimating >>>>>the computer in an open position. He sure was ignorant about the aggressive >>>>>tuning of deep blue and he sure was naive risking Nxe6 and not even blinking >>>>>when the program played it. >>>>> >>>>>Vincent
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