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Subject: Re: Crafty at WMCCC

Author: Chris Carson

Date: 10:05:50 11/03/97

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Chris,

   Sorry, I did not mean to say that you (or anyone else)
in particular was doing this.  It was just a possibility
in my opinion.

   I do not think Bob/Crafty need defending!  I think
Bob has done a great job with Crafty, as much talk and
correspondance as we have on this just shows how much
we all think of both Bob and Crafty!  :)

   BTW.  Congrads on how well CSTal did this year!  :)

Best Regards,
Chris Carson



On November 03, 1997 at 12:07:54, Chris Whittington wrote:

>
>On November 03, 1997 at 11:31:37, Chris Carson wrote:
>
>>On November 03, 1997 at 10:42:37, Howard Exner wrote:
>>
>>>I think one disadvantage Crafty may have is that it is
>>>so easily available to everyone. There is no mystery about
>>>its playing style, strengths and weaknesses.
>>>
>>>Here are some observations to support this theory. Note just a few
>>>recent examples of programmer secrecy such as in Deep Blue for one and
>>>the withholding of games from the French Championship a few
>>>weeks ago as another. Secrecy in chess is commonplace for all chess
>>>players. Also,I wonder how many programmers have now included opening
>>>preperation against Crafty's ingenious forth move in the Ruy Lopez
>>>(B-c4 instead of the common B-a4) that was seen about a year ago?
>>>
>>>How might Crafty fare in two years from now if Bob took a 2 year
>>>break from releasing Crafty to the masses?
>>>Call it "Hyatt's Hiatus" (say that quickly 3 times in a row).
>>
>>I agree with you and with Chris W. (in a different post).  I
>>think Bob has done a great job with Crafty!  :)   I also think
>>that with the popularity and ease to get source/opening book/
>>learning.dat information, most programers use Crafty as a
>>testbed anyway.  This means that they spare with Crafty all
>>the time and improve as a result (Crafty gets a lot of play
>>with the others on the servers, but not with the latest/well
>>prepared versions).
>
>Crafty may play against the other programs on the servers but these are
>not programs operated by anybody connected with his competitors. They
>are just people who have bought the programs.
>
>I don't accept that there is heavy tuning or training games played
>against Crafty. Most training will be against the usual commercially
>available programs and done via automated interface. Genius, Mchess,
>Hiarcs, Rebel, Fritz etc. Not Crafty. For example, I've never played one
>game here against Crafty, Thorsten has domn a few, but these were for
>himelf, and the games and/or conclusions never got passed to me.
>
>Its just not true that Crafty gets used as a testbad; maybe by some
>relatively unknown amateur programs, but certainly not by the major
>programs - their opposition is not Crafty.
>
>If you need to try and generate an excuse, anti-Crafty tuning is not
>going to be it.
>
>
>> Not sure how Bob can fight back?  Something
>>we should all think about this year and perhaps help out with
>>(perhaps a three month blanket period for Bob/Crafty to prepare?)
>
>Bob needs new concepts and ideas, mainly in the search. His evaluation
>function is probably ok, given that he wants to stay as a fast program,
>massive evaluation additions are not feasible. Its the search. His ideas
>are behind the other fast programs. Simply getting speed by 64 bit stuff
>obviously isn't enough, its algorithmic search improvements that he
>needs.
>
>Chris Whittington
>
>>
>>I thought Crafty did extremly well considering the competition
>>and the fact that Crafty is a no secret project!   :)
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>Chris Carson



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