Author: Chris Whittington
Date: 11:20:51 11/03/97
Go up one level in this thread
On November 03, 1997 at 13:05:50, Chris Carson wrote: >Chris, > > Sorry, I did not mean to say that you (or anyone else) >in particular was doing this. And I didn't mean to imply that you were suggesting it :) > It was just a possibility >in my opinion. Yup. But I repeat, I think tuning and test games are mostly done against available top SSDF programs. Crafty isn't on the SSDF. The other factor mitigating against tuning Crafty, or including Crafty in a test game cycle is that Crafty is a moving target. And setting it up to Bob's satisafction is well nigh impossible. I doubt you'll find one commercial using it in testing. > > I do not think Bob/Crafty need defending! I think >Bob has done a great job with Crafty, as much talk and >correspondance as we have on this just shows how much >we all think of both Bob and Crafty! :) Yeah, agreed. > > BTW. Congrads on how well CSTal did this year! :) Thanks, it surprised a few people, me included. What we liked was the real high density of unbalanced games. These tend to arise in CSTal-cptr games because the evaluation functions stress very different things. It woudl be nice if the sacs worked more often, trouble is in forcing them to a good result against the deep searchers. Chris Whittington > >Best Regards, >Chris Carson > > > >On November 03, 1997 at 12:07:54, Chris Whittington wrote: > >> >>On November 03, 1997 at 11:31:37, Chris Carson wrote: >> >>>On November 03, 1997 at 10:42:37, Howard Exner wrote: >>> >>>>I think one disadvantage Crafty may have is that it is >>>>so easily available to everyone. There is no mystery about >>>>its playing style, strengths and weaknesses. >>>> >>>>Here are some observations to support this theory. Note just a few >>>>recent examples of programmer secrecy such as in Deep Blue for one and >>>>the withholding of games from the French Championship a few >>>>weeks ago as another. Secrecy in chess is commonplace for all chess >>>>players. Also,I wonder how many programmers have now included opening >>>>preperation against Crafty's ingenious forth move in the Ruy Lopez >>>>(B-c4 instead of the common B-a4) that was seen about a year ago? >>>> >>>>How might Crafty fare in two years from now if Bob took a 2 year >>>>break from releasing Crafty to the masses? >>>>Call it "Hyatt's Hiatus" (say that quickly 3 times in a row). >>> >>>I agree with you and with Chris W. (in a different post). I >>>think Bob has done a great job with Crafty! :) I also think >>>that with the popularity and ease to get source/opening book/ >>>learning.dat information, most programers use Crafty as a >>>testbed anyway. This means that they spare with Crafty all >>>the time and improve as a result (Crafty gets a lot of play >>>with the others on the servers, but not with the latest/well >>>prepared versions). >> >>Crafty may play against the other programs on the servers but these are >>not programs operated by anybody connected with his competitors. They >>are just people who have bought the programs. >> >>I don't accept that there is heavy tuning or training games played >>against Crafty. Most training will be against the usual commercially >>available programs and done via automated interface. Genius, Mchess, >>Hiarcs, Rebel, Fritz etc. Not Crafty. For example, I've never played one >>game here against Crafty, Thorsten has domn a few, but these were for >>himelf, and the games and/or conclusions never got passed to me. >> >>Its just not true that Crafty gets used as a testbad; maybe by some >>relatively unknown amateur programs, but certainly not by the major >>programs - their opposition is not Crafty. >> >>If you need to try and generate an excuse, anti-Crafty tuning is not >>going to be it. >> >> >>> Not sure how Bob can fight back? Something >>>we should all think about this year and perhaps help out with >>>(perhaps a three month blanket period for Bob/Crafty to prepare?) >> >>Bob needs new concepts and ideas, mainly in the search. His evaluation >>function is probably ok, given that he wants to stay as a fast program, >>massive evaluation additions are not feasible. Its the search. His ideas >>are behind the other fast programs. Simply getting speed by 64 bit stuff >>obviously isn't enough, its algorithmic search improvements that he >>needs. >> >>Chris Whittington >> >>> >>>I thought Crafty did extremly well considering the competition >>>and the fact that Crafty is a no secret project! :) >>> >>>Best Regards, >>>Chris Carson
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