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Subject: Re: Dr. Hyatt is right about chess programs not being GM level.

Author: Alain Lyrette

Date: 13:52:25 07/01/00

Go up one level in this thread



On July 01, 2000 at 14:51:32, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On July 01, 2000 at 13:15:36, blass uri wrote:
>
>>On July 01, 2000 at 12:55:00, Dave Gomboc wrote:
>>
>>>On July 01, 2000 at 12:21:51, Adrien Regimbald wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hey,
>>>>
>>>>>Chinook is better at checkers than anything else on the planet -- by a wide
>>>>>margin.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Anything _alive_ yes :P  The issue of Marion is one yet undecided - and I'm not
>>>>sure that Chinook could have beat him at his best, but we will never know that
>>>>now though .. however, it is clear that Chinook is the best checkers "player"
>>>>currently on the planet.  That being said, Chinook may be better than every
>>>>other player, but it didn't demonstrate complete dominance - the top human
>>>>players can still beat it once in a while :P
>>>>
>>>>Hmm, wait a minute.. we haven't asked the wombats.. :P
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Adrien.
>>>
>>>Dr. Tinsley '94 and Chinook '94 were about equal.  It's tough to compare Dr.
>>>Tinsley '57 and Chinook '00 though.
>>>
>>>I don't know why you say that the top human players can still beat it once in a
>>>while.  Please cite the game.  My understanding is that it hasn't lost a game
>>>since the last time Tinsley beat it.  It has since clobbered both the reigning
>>>human world checkers champion and the reigning human world correspondence
>>>checkers champion.  We're talking +8 -0 =12 types of scores, and checkers is
>>>much more drawish than chess.
>>>
>>>Dave
>>
>>What is the information that you are based on when you say that checkers is much
>>more drawish than chess.
>>
>>Do the best players have more draws in checkers?
>
>Yes, by a big margin, too.  Even someone as strong as Tinsley would have a long
>series of draws in W.C. matches.
>
>
>
>>
>>I read some years ago that chinook had a lot of draws because of the style of
>>the machine and that the result was 2:1 and 67 draws if my memory is correct.
>>
>>I suspect that one of the reason that chinook could win humans in checkers is
>>the fact that this game is less popular than chess so humans know it less.
>
>You _greatly_ underestimate humans here.  Tinsley had to be seen to be
>believed.  He was far more dominating than even Kasparov or Fischer.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>The game of checkers is also more simple than chess(the number of the legal
>>positions is clearly smaller because the pieces can be only in 50 squares when
>>in chess there are 64 squares and there are only 2 kind of pieces for every
>>player).
>
>
>That is a mistake to think.  Simpler?  maybe in terms of how many moves in a
>given position.  But Tinsley regularly calculated variations 40+ moves deep
>because of this simplicity.  Which means that suddenly things aren't nearly so
>simple any longer...
>
>
>
>
>>
>>The fact that the game is more simple help the machine to get better result and
>>I wonder if modified chinook can win 12*12 checkers against the best humans when
>>every side begins with 30 pieces(in this case I believe that the game is not
>>more simple than chess).
>>
>>Uri
Checkers is to chess what chess is to go



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